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Understand... we are talking about this on a discussion board. Slightly different environment here...
I am not going to go to a gay person and demean them as a sinner... just like if I knew someone practiced pornography, I would not go up to that person and wag my finger at them. The goal is to get them to Christ, and let Him deal with that persons sin. If the Holy Spirit prompts me to call out sin, I will.
I agree with what you posted earlier - gays are not the worst of the worst. But you have people like Nate, Warden and others that deny it's sin. That's wrong.
Also with regards to suicide - I cannot control what people do.
I don't think it's sin, either, just for the record. I don't think that's wrong. I do tend to think that ANY person, gay or straight, who is promiscuous and leaping from sex partner to sex partner is doing so because of a deeper issue, and is therefore harming him/herself and using other people. Two of the benefits of acceptance of gay people in our society is that a) they don't have to hide behind a beard; i.e., marrying a straight person they don't really love to hide their true selves--I know several women who loved men they thought were straight who turned out to have a hidden life on the side--and, 2) you see more gay people settling down long-term with a straight partner rather than indulging in furtive sexual encounters in bathhouses or dark alleys or public parks.
But thanks for clarifying that you wouldn't demean them as a sinner. Good to know.
None of us can control what people do, I agree. People have committed suicide despite the best efforts of those who loved them to prevent it. I was just being cautionary about not being part of what drives a hurting person to harm himself or herself, to see them as a hurting person and not a sinner in the sense that they are bad or evil.
See - you just changed the subject. No one is talking about death of gays, which I do not support. I am not putting demands on anybody. Sin is sin whether I do it, or someone else does it. Ultimately people will deal with it - or not deal with - as they see fit.
But if teens commit suicide because of the words of rejection by the fundamentalist lifestyle, you ARE complicit in their deaths--whether that is your intention or not. You know the old fundamentalist slogan, "Hell will be filled with those who had good intentions."
Yes, you DO demand something of others that you do not demand of yourself. You demand homosexuals be celibate to be an "acceptable" Christian. That is the kind of things Pharisees demanded of others while they themselves were not under such obligation.
I'm sorry if you do not wish to be seen as a Pharisee, but the resemblance is remarkable--therefore I have remarked. I'm doing the same thing you claim too be doing--pointing out sin when I see it.
ok. btw, I also smoke, which is a bad thing.
In quotations are what you wrote, and my response.
btw, I'm a single guy and straight.
"sex doesn't interest me really"
- If that were true, this would be a lot easier.
"some of us can be celibate, but the vast majority of us cannot"
- Celibacy is not a requirement for anyone but a consecrated religious.
"we do the same things straight people do. We have that one person we can go
to when everything goes wonky, to help share the burdens of life, someone to share
the deepest part of ourselves with. Not sex, though I'm sure that's a part of it...
it goes so far beyond that."
- You can have these friendships without the sexual acts. The love can actually
deepen and become purer without resorting to base carnal pleasure, especially
if that carnal pleasure is reformed in the mind and spirit to be a sadness, not a joy.
"to be told that to love in that way is forbidden"
- Women were made for men, and the man completes the woman.
That is the design of nature. It is the revelation of nature and in harmony
with God's will for us. The fidelity between them honors God
who rewards them with happiness in their union, forsaking others as
we forsake other gods for our God. The straight and narrow path; the flesh
which is not at war with the spirit, but which strengthens the spirit in
sacramental grace.
"it's a burden too great for us to carry."
- Contrarily, the burden that is too great is to live apart from God.
All other burdens are mere illusions; they are deceptions and snares
of the Evil One who tells us that part of our self will which rebels
is higher than the Father's Will for us, and the baudy satisfactions of
sated temptations of any sort can fill us with a greater joy than
refusal to partake of those tempations.
They will not go away without pain, but that pain is lasting growth.
By the mercy of the Father it disappears and is replaced by His Love.
The burden of the Son we must carry to attain true freedom is a light
burden that brings everlasting life; better to carry Him in our hearts
than to carry the burden of our old deception; a self-made burden
which arises from the flesh; a fallen flesh that is reduced to dirt
in a fallen world. His Kingdom is not of this world; but we can live
in His Kingdom while we are here; with the full armour of the Resurrection.
"It's not about sex, or behavior, or anything else. It's about relationships"
- It is about sex, because the carnal act is the only deed which brings blindness
and separation unless it is ordained by God. Our bodies are temples; we are a
holy priesthood; these very same bodies we inhabit are not our property.
They are the property of the One who created us; not as we are, but without
sin He created us. It was our free will that made sin and death. Without free will,
there cannot be Love; and Love is what brings Life eternal.
Our bodies and souls will be reunited in the restoration of all things;
and the judgement of God will fall upon them both forever.
In this glorious moment we shall again see them and what we have done to them;
and what we have done to others' bodies; do we wish to weep ? No.
If we repent, God is merciful and will not burden us of any weeping, but
repent we must; for repentance is the only way to walk with God.
These vessels of flesh and bone which quiver and creak along with every
pulse and flow; into which spirits may dwell, we should ask the Lord Himself
to come under our roofs and make a home in us that transforms us.
We are commanded to eat of His Flesh, and His Blood, which He gave us,
after so much pain, so that Our Flesh and Our Blood may be united with God
and experience His eternal joy, not the passing, illusory baubles of the Fallen One,
who can destroy both body and soul with his lying wonders.
Last edited by Snowball7; 03-23-2016 at 12:16 PM..
ok. btw, I also smoke, which is a bad thing.
In quotations are what you wrote, and my response.
btw, I'm a single guy and straight.
"sex doesn't interest me really"
- If that were true, this would be a lot easier.
"some of us can be celibate, but the vast majority of us cannot"
- Celibacy is not a requirement for anyone but a consecrated religious.
"we do the same things straight people do. We have that one person we can go
to when everything goes wonky, to help share the burdens of life, someone to share
the deepest part of ourselves with. Not sex, though I'm sure that's a part of it...
it goes so far beyond that."
- You can have these friendships without the sexual acts. the love can actually
deepen and become purer without resorting to base carnal pleasure, especially
if that carnal pleasure is reformed in the mind and spirit to be a sadness, not a joy.
"to be told that to love in that way is forbidden"
- Women were made for men, and the man completes the woman.
that is the design of nature. it is the revelation of nature and in harmony
with God's will for us. The fidelity between them honors God
who rewards them with happiness in their union, forsaking others as
we forsake other gods for our God. The straight and narrow path; the flesh
which is not at war with the spirit, but which strengthens the spirit in
sacramental grace.
"it's a burden too great for us to carry."
- Contrarily, the burden that is too great is to live apart from God.
all other burdens are mere illusions; they are deceptions and snares
of the evil one who tells us our self will is higher than His Will for us,
and the baudy satisfactions of sated temptations of any sort can
fill us with a greater joy than refusal to partake of those tempations.
they will not go away without pain, but that pain is lasting growth.
By the mercy of the Father it disappears and is replaced by His Love.
The burden of the Son we must carry to attain true freedom is a light
burden that brings everlasting life; better to carry Him in our hearts
than to carry the burden of our old deception; a self-made burden
which arises from the flesh; a fallen flesh that is reduced to dirt
in a fallen world. His Kingdom is not of this world; but we can live
in His Kingdom while we are here; with the full armour of the Resurrection.
"It's not about sex, or behavior, or anything else. It's about relationships"
- It is about sex, because the carnal act is the only deed which brings blindness
and separation unless it is ordained by God. Our bodies are temples; we are a
holy priesthood; these very same bodies we inhabit are not our property.
They are the property of the One who created us; not as we are, but without
sin He created us. It was our free will that made sin and death. Without free will,
there cannot be Love; and Love is what brings Life eternal.
Our bodies and souls will be reunited in the restoration of all things;
and the judgement of God will fall upon them both forever.
In this glorious moment we shall again see them and what we have done to them;
and what we have done to others' bodies; do we wish to weep ? No.
If we repent, God is merciful and will not burden us of any weeping, but
repent we must; for repentance is the only way to walk with God.
These vessels of flesh and bone which quiver and creak along with every
pulse and flow; into which spirits may dwell, we should ask the Lord Himself
to come under our roofs and make a home in us that transforms us.
We are commanded to eat of His Flesh, and His Blood, which He gave us,
after so much pain, so that Our Flesh and Our Blood may be united with God
and experience His joy, not the passing, illusory baubles of the Fallen One,
who can destroy both body and soul with his lying wonders.
Amen, Snowball7 !
First of all I think it was pretty awesome and loving of you to ask in giving your rebuttal on this subject rather then force it upon others !
And I also would like to say what you said I could discern the Spirit of God all through it and do believe this is one of the best post I have read in this forum in a long time !
Our God is a awesome God and His love is forever, eternal !
Blessings to you,
The system wouldn't let me rep, I need to spread the love around
But if teens commit suicide because of the words of rejection by the fundamentalist lifestyle, you ARE complicit in their deaths--whether that is your intention or not. You know the old fundamentalist slogan, "Hell will be filled with those who had good intentions."
Yes, you DO demand something of others that you do not demand of yourself. You demand homosexuals be celibate to be an "acceptable" Christian. That is the kind of things Pharisees demanded of others while they themselves were not under such obligation.
I'm sorry if you do not wish to be seen as a Pharisee, but the resemblance is remarkable--therefore I have remarked. I'm doing the same thing you claim too be doing--pointing out sin when I see it.
In the same way that I can not control people committing suicide, I can not control people who want to believe I am a Pharisee, and I can't control people from creating the ludicrous idea that I would be complicit in a suicide.
That suicide statement is a total banana sundae with nuts.
Pornography is sin. Now what? Is it harmful towards those who do pornography? The activity is sin. Christ died for this as well as homosexual activity.
ok. btw, I also smoke, which is a bad thing.
In quotations are what you wrote, and my response.
btw, I'm a single guy and straight.
"sex doesn't interest me really"
- If that were true, this would be a lot easier.
"some of us can be celibate, but the vast majority of us cannot"
- Celibacy is not a requirement for anyone but a consecrated religious.
"we do the same things straight people do. We have that one person we can go
to when everything goes wonky, to help share the burdens of life, someone to share
the deepest part of ourselves with. Not sex, though I'm sure that's a part of it...
it goes so far beyond that."
- You can have these friendships without the sexual acts. The love can actually
deepen and become purer without resorting to base carnal pleasure, especially
if that carnal pleasure is reformed in the mind and spirit to be a sadness, not a joy.
"to be told that to love in that way is forbidden"
- Women were made for men, and the man completes the woman.
That is the design of nature. It is the revelation of nature and in harmony
with God's will for us. The fidelity between them honors God
who rewards them with happiness in their union, forsaking others as
we forsake other gods for our God. The straight and narrow path; the flesh
which is not at war with the spirit, but which strengthens the spirit in
sacramental grace.
"it's a burden too great for us to carry."
- Contrarily, the burden that is too great is to live apart from God.
All other burdens are mere illusions; they are deceptions and snares
of the Evil One who tells us that part of our self will which rebels
is higher than the Father's Will for us, and the baudy satisfactions of
sated temptations of any sort can fill us with a greater joy than
refusal to partake of those tempations.
They will not go away without pain, but that pain is lasting growth.
By the mercy of the Father it disappears and is replaced by His Love.
The burden of the Son we must carry to attain true freedom is a light
burden that brings everlasting life; better to carry Him in our hearts
than to carry the burden of our old deception; a self-made burden
which arises from the flesh; a fallen flesh that is reduced to dirt
in a fallen world. His Kingdom is not of this world; but we can live
in His Kingdom while we are here; with the full armour of the Resurrection.
"It's not about sex, or behavior, or anything else. It's about relationships"
- It is about sex, because the carnal act is the only deed which brings blindness
and separation unless it is ordained by God. Our bodies are temples; we are a
holy priesthood; these very same bodies we inhabit are not our property.
They are the property of the One who created us; not as we are, but without
sin He created us. It was our free will that made sin and death. Without free will,
there cannot be Love; and Love is what brings Life eternal.
Our bodies and souls will be reunited in the restoration of all things;
and the judgement of God will fall upon them both forever.
In this glorious moment we shall again see them and what we have done to them;
and what we have done to others' bodies; do we wish to weep ? No.
If we repent, God is merciful and will not burden us of any weeping, but
repent we must; for repentance is the only way to walk with God.
These vessels of flesh and bone which quiver and creak along with every
pulse and flow; into which spirits may dwell, we should ask the Lord Himself
to come under our roofs and make a home in us that transforms us.
We are commanded to eat of His Flesh, and His Blood, which He gave us,
after so much pain, so that Our Flesh and Our Blood may be united with God
and experience His eternal joy, not the passing, illusory baubles of the Fallen One,
who can destroy both body and soul with his lying wonders.
As a COMPANION, not a a SEX TOY, NOT a SLAVE or SERVANT and NOT to be OPPRESSED and denied opportunities.
And it will be by our FREE WILL (not the judgement of others) that God will have the last word. GOD created EVERYTHING, that includes SIN. Unless you concede that MAN is capable of CREATING and therefore id like god? Then again, many evangelicals also give satan the ability to CREATE and influence mortal activity as if "he" is some all powerful force..
So all those who want to interpret god-in-the-tiny-box-of-insecurities feel free to relocate to a really nice country where Sharia Law already exists and religion rules.
Last edited by zthatzmanz28; 03-23-2016 at 01:50 PM..
I don't think it's sin, either, just for the record. I don't think that's wrong. I do tend to think that ANY person, gay or straight, who is promiscuous and leaping from sex partner to sex partner is doing so because of a deeper issue, and is therefore harming him/herself and using other people. Two of the benefits of acceptance of gay people in our society is that a) they don't have to hide behind a beard; i.e., marrying a straight person they don't really love to hide their true selves--I know several women who loved men they thought were straight who turned out to have a hidden life on the side--and, 2) you see more gay people settling down long-term with a straight partner rather than indulging in furtive sexual encounters in bathhouses or dark alleys or public parks.
But thanks for clarifying that you wouldn't demean them as a sinner. Good to know.
None of us can control what people do, I agree. People have committed suicide despite the best efforts of those who loved them to prevent it. I was just being cautionary about not being part of what drives a hurting person to harm himself or herself, to see them as a hurting person and not a sinner in the sense that they are bad or evil.
Snowball, your perception hinges on the single statement: "Women were made for men, and the man completes the woman.
That is the design of nature," as if it were that simple. God and nature are FAR more complex than you dream and sexuality in humans is also. Sexual sharing is just one of the bonding elements in a close personal relationship, but often the most important, particularly in the earlier stages of a committed relationship. To deny such a bond to same sex relationships because of such a simplistic AND erroneous perception is a travesty on the love of God.
ok. btw, I also smoke, which is a bad thing.
In quotations are what you wrote, and my response.
btw, I'm a single guy and straight.
"sex doesn't interest me really"
- If that were true, this would be a lot easier.
"some of us can be celibate, but the vast majority of us cannot"
- Celibacy is not a requirement for anyone but a consecrated religious.
"we do the same things straight people do. We have that one person we can go
to when everything goes wonky, to help share the burdens of life, someone to share
the deepest part of ourselves with. Not sex, though I'm sure that's a part of it...
it goes so far beyond that."
- You can have these friendships without the sexual acts. The love can actually
deepen and become purer without resorting to base carnal pleasure, especially
if that carnal pleasure is reformed in the mind and spirit to be a sadness, not a joy.
"to be told that to love in that way is forbidden"
- Women were made for men, and the man completes the woman.
That is the design of nature. It is the revelation of nature and in harmony
with God's will for us. The fidelity between them honors God
who rewards them with happiness in their union, forsaking others as
we forsake other gods for our God. The straight and narrow path; the flesh
which is not at war with the spirit, but which strengthens the spirit in
sacramental grace.
"it's a burden too great for us to carry."
- Contrarily, the burden that is too great is to live apart from God.
All other burdens are mere illusions; they are deceptions and snares
of the Evil One who tells us that part of our self will which rebels
is higher than the Father's Will for us, and the baudy satisfactions of
sated temptations of any sort can fill us with a greater joy than
refusal to partake of those tempations.
They will not go away without pain, but that pain is lasting growth.
By the mercy of the Father it disappears and is replaced by His Love.
The burden of the Son we must carry to attain true freedom is a light
burden that brings everlasting life; better to carry Him in our hearts
than to carry the burden of our old deception; a self-made burden
which arises from the flesh; a fallen flesh that is reduced to dirt
in a fallen world. His Kingdom is not of this world; but we can live
in His Kingdom while we are here; with the full armour of the Resurrection.
"It's not about sex, or behavior, or anything else. It's about relationships"
- It is about sex, because the carnal act is the only deed which brings blindness
and separation unless it is ordained by God. Our bodies are temples; we are a
holy priesthood; these very same bodies we inhabit are not our property.
They are the property of the One who created us; not as we are, but without
sin He created us. It was our free will that made sin and death. Without free will,
there cannot be Love; and Love is what brings Life eternal.
Our bodies and souls will be reunited in the restoration of all things;
and the judgement of God will fall upon them both forever.
In this glorious moment we shall again see them and what we have done to them;
and what we have done to others' bodies; do we wish to weep ? No.
If we repent, God is merciful and will not burden us of any weeping, but
repent we must; for repentance is the only way to walk with God.
These vessels of flesh and bone which quiver and creak along with every
pulse and flow; into which spirits may dwell, we should ask the Lord Himself
to come under our roofs and make a home in us that transforms us.
We are commanded to eat of His Flesh, and His Blood, which He gave us,
after so much pain, so that Our Flesh and Our Blood may be united with God
and experience His eternal joy, not the passing, illusory baubles of the Fallen One,
who can destroy both body and soul with his lying wonders.
I've mentioned this a few times, I am a virgin. I've never had sex, and at this time it is of little interest to me. I do not want sex at this time. My boyfriend and I are too busy enjoying other aspects of one another. Cuddling, kissing, hand holding, ripping on lame and annoying TV commercials, etc. You coming back with the equivalent of "yes you do! this is ALL about sex!" without knowing me is actually kind of arrogant. Presuming to know my wants, my desires and my heart I mean. God will let he and I know when it's time, if it ever is. If I am ultimately to be with another girl, I don't know. I'm just taking things as they come.
All of your talking about sex as a carnal act doesn't track with me at all. If that is all sex is to you, I kind of feel sorry for you. I hope that comes across to you better than it reads. Sex to me is the highest physical expression of intimacy one person can give to another. A gift beyond price. It's spiritual to me almost. I cannot judge someone for using it incorrectly, but as for me, it will only happen within the context of true commitment. I don't know if I will be married when it happens. I do know that my partner and I will be deeply committed when it does.
I don't believe that woman was made for man. I was made to please God and Him alone. A man cannot complete me. Only God can. Only God will.
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