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Old 02-18-2008, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
The question I asked came up during my time in study Saturday evening and I was reading/looking at some text on Hell for a lesson I was teaching Sunday morning. I was reading and studying and the 'thought' came to mind "Gehenna, garbage dump, Lake of Fire or whatever--what goes in, stays in'

I felt like I was 'supposed' to share that here and I think it's ironic it's one of the only things you and I have ever agreed on. What I struggle with is how you can make that concession and then say Hell isn't forever. If the terms used to describe the place (hell) were 'once and done' then how can you not equally apply that to Hell?

But all in all it's a good day when you and I can agree
Alpha: If the Lake of Theos Pur is the same as gehenna, how is it cast into itself? Hell is not eternal, nor is death. There are words in Koine that come close to encapsulating the thought of eternal or everlasting: aionios is not one of them, unless linked or joined with One who alone is Eternal, the Aionios Theos. And even then, aionios in itself does not mean everlasting nor eternal.

If aionios means everlasting or eternal (as per Dr. James Stong and others); what does prov aionios chronos mean?

1. What does "prov aijwvnioß (aionios) crovnoß" mean?

Prov= _______________?

aijwvnioß= Everlasting/Eternal/Without beginning or ending?

crovnoß= _______________?
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:12 AM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
I have zero knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and very little English & French. I did however have a Greek girlfriend, and we watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding together. Does that count?
Thank you for being honest.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:04 AM
 
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I just have one comment.

It comes from a very embarrassing moment that I suffered from wrongly interpreting a Greek word and sharing my belief to a teacher in a class at a Christian school.

The next day I discovered that my wrong interpretation had been the same wrong interpretation that had led to a known heresey that had been taught by someone else in the church....

It was just one Greek letter different but what a difference it made in the correct translation....

If you are going to teach others that there is no hell - you better be sure what you're teaching is right. Teachers will be judged for what they teach...

James 3

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Last edited by World Citizen; 02-18-2008 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:16 AM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
I just have one comment.

It comes from a very embarrassing moment that I suffered from wrongly interpreting a Greek word and sharing my belief to a teacher in a class at a Christian school.

The next day I discovered that my wrong interpretation had been the same wrong interpretation that had led to a known heresey that had been taught by someone else in the church....

It was just one Greek letter different but what a difference it made in the correct translation....

If you are going to teach others that there is no hell - you better be sure what you're teaching is right. Teachers will be judged for what they teach...

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Amen...as one who has studied to no end I still find myself making mistakes and learning. Having no knowledge of the language can be disasterous regarding translation.

Using an interlinear translation may be one of the worst ways to go about it, since it gives no help in identifying the grammatical structure of the Greek, but it gives you the feeling that you have understood the passage when you haven't.

As was once said to me regarding interpretation of Greek: "Those who don't know aren't dangerous; those who insist they do know are very dangerous."
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:25 AM
 
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I think those that don't know are very dangerous when they are in a position to teach others.

Zeal without knowledge and the real spiritual maturity that is apparent in their lives, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit... can do more damage than good.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
If you are going to teach others that there is no hell - you better be sure what you're teaching is right. Teachers will be judged for what they teach...

James 3

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
W.C. there are four hells! In fact: if "pit" (also from the Hebrew sheol is included), that would be five.

And yes, "My brothers, be not many teachers knowing that we shall receive greater damnation."

Teaching the word of the Lord is an awesome responsibility that stands before Him in judgement.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:59 AM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Alpha: If the Lake of Theos Pur is the same as gehenna, how is it cast into itself? Hell is not eternal, nor is death. There are words in Koine that come close to encapsulating the thought of eternal or everlasting: aionios is not one of them, unless linked or joined with One who alone is Eternal, the Aionios Theos. And even then, aionios in itself does not mean everlasting nor eternal.

If aionios means everlasting or eternal (as per Dr. James Stong and others); what does prov aionios chronos mean?

1. What does "prov aijwvnioß (aionios) crovnoß" mean?

Prov= _______________?

aijwvnioß= Everlasting/Eternal/Without beginning or ending?

crovnoß= _______________?
You know...why not. I've got a few minutes I didn't think I would have.

I disagree with your takes on aionios being ONLY linked to God to be eternal.

It is in fact used to talk about "eternal things" outside of God the father such as "eternal life." Or in 2 Peter 1:11 where it's used for the "everlasting kingdom" and also over in 2 Thessl 1:9 as "everlasting destruction".
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Even though that phrase you asked above is NOT in the scripture I quoted what you have above could be translated by me as

"The age of a time".

BUT that again, is NOT in the text I listed. It CAN however be used for "hades" (I think the Catholics call it purgatory) and is for the spirit and not the body. It's temporal, in other words "The age of a time" where as geenna is definitive and for when the soul and body are reunited at the judgement and also called "The Lake of Fire". John is very clear that death and hell (Hades) where thrown into the lake of fire.

Where *I* think you are getting tripped up is between the non biblical use of the word/s and the biblical use.

Aionios has been used to define "an age" but it's rare and has to be in a specific context (As you put it above) In secular philosophical circles even Plato and Philo used and identified the word as being "eternal" more than not.

That's all off the top of my head and the best I can do without busting out dusty old college material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
I think those that don't know are very dangerous when they are in a position to teach others.

Zeal without knowledge and the real spiritual maturity that is apparent in their lives, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit...

Agreed. The premise of the "statement" I was getting at is those who admittedly don't know and are willing to acknowledge that are not as dangerous as those who are SURE THEY have it locked down.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
what you have above could be translated by me as

"The age of a time".
Does aionios mean age? The word I asked you to define is the adjective aionios, rooted in the noun aion. What does prov mean? Chronos is correct; it is the Greek from which we get chronology in English. So one word down, chronos= time, or as the K.J.V. translates it "began", two to go. Remember, aionios means eternal without beginning and ending.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:17 AM
 
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Does aionios mean age? The word I asked you to define is the adjective aionios, rooted in the noun aion. What does prov mean? Chronos is correct; it is the Greek from which we get chronology in English. So one word down, chronos= time, or as the K.J.V. translates it "began", two to go. Remember, aionios means eternal without beginning and ending.
So let me get this right...the person who knows no Greek or Hebrew is now instructing the person who does (albeit I never claimed to be an expert.) via commentaries and lexicons? Do you at least own the English works of Philo? Have you even read it?

I've seen it all now. Really, I have.

I've said my piece, I'll let God speak to those who read it.

Have a blessed day.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:26 AM
 
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What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time

Let us consider the true meaning of the words "aion" and "aionios".

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting," for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up.;

I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for "aion" means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective "aionios" means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and NEVER "everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.....

NOTE:

The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"--Canon Farrar -

"The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages."--Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by 'olam' (the Hebrew word corresponding to "aion"), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."

Quote:
The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-
So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks.--(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

...Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal,--ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.--1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting" the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited--nay, a very limited duration--to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be "for ever," to be "everlasting" (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being "for ever with the Lord"--these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)--in common use among the Jews in our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point--these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."

In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."

Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-

And David's seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever," his house "for ever;" nay, the passover is to endure "for ever;" and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us."

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ's Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.--(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.
Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?"

You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: "Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities."

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come."

Our Lord's words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, "the harvest is the end of the eternity," i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, "the cares," not of "this world," but "the cares of this eternity choke the word."

In Luke 16:8, "The children of this world," should be "the children of this eternity."

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, "upon whom the ends of the world are come," should be: "the ends of the eternities."

Take next, Gal. 1:4: "That He might deliver us from this present evil world," should run thus: "from this present evil eternity."

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity."

And "Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested," should read, on the popular view, "at the end of the eternities."

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)

4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.

If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?"

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.

So John 17:3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages."

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages."

In 1 Cor. 10:11 "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age' or "ages" in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how--assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases--how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."

-Christ Triumphant by Rev. Thomas Allin-

Complete Text HERE

Quote:
Aionios is the adjective of aion. An adjective CANNOT take on more force than the noun from which it is derived.
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