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You cannot lose your righteousness through your disobedience because you never got it in the first place by your obedience.
Read it again.
Believe this? If not, you're not truly born again - you believe in justification by works.
This preaching has been targeted as excusing sin, from the writings of Paul until today - but that accusation is not true. They that say so are missing the beauty and power of grace - grace abolishes sin. Romans 6:14 says For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Many read that passage as instruction, but it is written as truth and fact. You are no longer under sin, and the knowledge of such releases you from the power of sin.
Any and all, not to one directly - it's a universal problem, this focusing on sin (OP). The power of sin is broken when you refuse condemnation and stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has set you free.
Any and all, not to one directly - it's a universal problem, this focusing on sin (OP). The power of sin is broken when you refuse condemnation and stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has set you free.
The believer still needs to acknowlege his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 in order to be in fellowship under the filling of the Holy Spirit and therefore in a status of being spiritual, rather than under the control of his old sin nature and therefore carnal. The believer who never names his sins to God remains in a perpetual state of carnality and cannot grow spiritually.
The believer still needs to acknowlege his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 in order to be in fellowship under the filling of the Holy Spirit and therefore in a status of being spiritual, rather than under the control of his old sin nature and therefore carnal. The believer who never names his sins to God remains in a perpetual state of carnality and cannot grow spiritually.
If you are 'looking unto Jesus' and not unto yourself, you become like that which you're fixed on. Otherwise, sin is a vicious cycle - whenever we live under condemnation for what we have done, we are doomed to repeat it.
Again, this is not a license to sin - but this is the gospel Paul preached and was persecuted for - believing God unto salvation is the faith of Abraham, working for your righteousness is the way of the law. I am not saying "do not confess your sin", but I am saying that acknowledging your sin is placing it above the Sacrifice made to cleanse it and every other you could commit.
Focus on the Savior, and suddenly we find ourselves keeping the law without trying - strange, huh?
If you are 'looking unto Jesus' and not unto yourself, you become like that which you're fixed on. Otherwise, sin is a vicious cycle - whenever we live under condemnation for what we have done, we are doomed to repeat it.
Again, this is not a license to sin - but this is the gospel Paul preached and was persecuted for - believing God unto salvation is the faith of Abraham, working for your righteousness is the way of the law. I am not saying "do not confess your sin", but I am saying that acknowledging your sin is placing it above the Sacrifice made to cleanse it and every other you could commit.
Focus on the Savior, and suddenly we find ourselves keeping the law without trying - strange, huh?
Since God made provision for the believer to acknowledge his sins, then the confession of those sins is by no means placing it above Christ's sacrifice for sin. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Acknowledging your sins is a recognition of God's grace. It is a recognition that your sins were judged and paid for at the cross. And by simply naming your sin to God you are agreeing with God that you sinned. When you name the sin to God, He immediately forgives the sin and you are back in fellowship. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of salvation, but with the daily, moment by moment fellowship with God. When the believer sins he becomes carnal and is therefore out of fellowship. In order to regain that fellowship the believer simply agrees with God (by naming it) that He sinned. God recognizes that the sin was already judged at the cross and He forgives it and forgets it.
Confession of sin is a cleansing. It is this cleansing to which Jesus referred when He illustrated the principle of naming your sins in John 13:4-12 by washing the disciples feet. In verse 10 the reference to bathing refers to the moment of salvation. One who has bathed (has been saved through faith in Christ) need only wash his feet (acknowledge his sins). Not to remain saved, but to maintain that moment by moment fellowship or rapport with God.
Heavenese- Any thoughts on 1st John 4 v 10 for us ?
I agree with that verse, most definitely. Very few Christians actually comprehend what this verse tells us. Most Christians boast in their love for God, or put the focus of their life on loving God. Yet if that is your focus, you will find yourself coming short all the time. The Law said to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Most people shout "AMEN!" to that, but very few ask, "How do I do that?" The honest ones ask how do we love God with all our heart, and the truth is we can't. This was a commandment from the laws of Moses, and we all know we can't keep them. You can't love God perfectly, in fact no one was looking for God to begin with. Abraham wasn't looking for God, it was God who called him. So 1 John 4 v 10 puts things back in it's right perspective. This is love, not that we loved God with all our heart, but that God loved us with all His.
Our calling as believers, is to share the love He's given us, to the whole world. This comes on the back of the new command Jesus gave us. To love one another, as "He" loved us. It's no longer to love our neighbor as ourselves, but to love our neighbor as Christ loved us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
If we were made absolutely holy at the time of our conversion, the moment we were transferred out of darkness and into his marvelous light, I would agree that we would no longer sin. But we are not instantaneously perfectly sanctified. It is a continuing process, that is why Paul says in Phil. 2:12 to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' Not that we have to work for our salvation, or that we have to work to remain saved, but that in our daily lives we have to work at our sanctification. Yes repentance also entails changing our minds about sin (that there is sin and what it does to us), and when we do sin we should grieved by it. A new believer, while they may drastically alter their lives, will still sin. If anyone says that they have never sinned after becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus, I don't think they understand the nature of sin.
When it comes to the definition of repentance, all it means is to change your mind. There's no room for grieving or confessing, though a changed mind confesses. (You are going to speak what's in your heart) When it comes to sin, whether we commit it or not, my mind still acknowledges it as sin. If I had to change my mind about it, it would mean I didn't know it was sin, which means I'm not saved. For instance, if I had sex with someone's wife, and I didn't know that was a sin, then I'm not saved. It shouldn't be a matter of confessing, "I have sinned, God forgive me." I knew it was sin from the get go, and thus my mind hasn't changed about what is sin and what's not.
Now if I committed the act because I fell into temptation of the body, I need to confess that to the people who I offended, (The woman's husband, her family, my family, all who were affected by this act) and deal with the natural consequences of my actions. Yet the sin itself is judged on Christ, because I'm in Christ. The only thing that would hinder my relationship with the Father, is not if I confess it as sin because I already know it's sin, but if I let this sin condemn me from the Father. That I feel like I have to do something to restore any kind of connection back to Him. Any kind of connection.
All I have to do is remember who I am in Christ. I didn't commit the sin in Christ, I did it of my own accord to fulfill the lust of my body. When I see myself in Christ, then I walk as He walked. This is the spiritual connection we have in Him. So that's what I mean when I say we repent about sin, once. Yet for God's grace, we only go deeper in that, so we change our mind about His grace all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
Of course, we see the letter to the Corinthians a bit differently, and from your understanding the man committing adultery with his father's wife was not saved. I can't say that I see that from the context, though his lifestyle would definitely say that if he was saved, only God knows for sure his standing. It is curious, though, that the woman wasn't rebuked along with the man, and since Paul was the one to advocate that in Christ 'there is neither male nor female', when it comes to discipline within the church, which only applies to believers, he would have rebuked both the man and the woman. Remember also that salvation, while it is a done thing in the past, is also current and future. When Paul said 'work our your own salvation,' he was talking about that current salvation that is a continuous event in the believers life. But salvation is also a future event, fully realized as the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that is the event to which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 5:5. If he was not saved, not part of the body of Christ, the Paul's rebuke wouldn't have any effect. Why would it be shocking for a sinner to act like a sinner? It would be shocking, on the other hand, for a man who has been 'washed with regeneration and renewal of the Spirit' to continue to act like a sinner. And it is to just such a person that Paul directs his rebuke.
I don't think the rebuke is so much towards the man, but to the church. That they should have dismissed such a person a long time ago, so that his spirit would be saved. Of course again, I take that to mean this man wasn't saved. Another way of looking at it is the Corinthians themselves. They were doing some pretty sinful stuff as well, but Paul didn't tell that everyone who were doing these things to be dismissed for the destruction of their body. He told them to examine themselves. Yet about this one man, Paul said dismiss him. So there is a good case this man wasn't saved, he wasn't apart of the brethren.
You bring up an interesting point. About salvation being a present and a future thing. In all truth, salvation itself means more than just escaping eternal seperation from God. Yet salvation means to be saved in every area. Saved from eternal seperation, saved from hunger, saved from sickness, saved from poverty, and so on. The apostles dealt with salvation in all these matters in their NT letters. Yet if a Christian always have the impression that salvation only means being saved from Hell, then they will confuse a good bit of the teachings in the NT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
It is only those that have been transferred out of darkness and into light that can see sin for what it is. It is specifically because we have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit that we can repent of sin and confess the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also because of the continued indwelling of the Spirit of God that we can agree with God about our sin if (and when) we do sin. While some are miraculously changed at the time of their conversion, and never sin in the manner they have before, for others it's a more painful growing experience. I often wonder why we are not instantaneously 'conformed to the image of His Son' (Rom. 8:29) to which we have been predestined. It would sure alleviate much sorrow and grief on our part if God did this for us. But He doesn't, and so some continue to fall to the 'sin that so easily entangles us'. (Heb. 12:1)
Yet I've just been thinking, if confession of sins were so important, why isn't this a main thing talked about in the Gospels? Jesus rebuked His disciples all the time about having a lack of faith, that they forgot the miracles He did, and was amazed each time He did something wonderful. (Not that they weren't amazing, it was just their amazement came from unbelief) Why didn't Jesus ever say, "Confess your sins Peter" or "Confess your sins John"? In the book of Acts, why don't we see Christians confessing their sins throughout? If this was such an important teaching for continued spiritual growth, why so little if any focus on it? In that Hebrews verse you mentioned, it actually says we can lay aside the sin that so easily entangles us. If we can lay aside that sin, we can certainly lay aside the ones that don't entangle us easily.
Scripture says that God doesn't allow us to be tempted by more than we can bare, that He actually gives us a way out of temptation so we won't sin. Is it safe to say that if we take God's way out all the time, we won't fall to the temptation, and thus won't sin? If that is true, then it is certainly possible to not sin, when our mind is fully set on Christ. If we say we will never be able to live a completely sinless life while we are still here, we are in a way setting ourselves up to sin, or at least expecting it. That means there is still a part of our mind that is not honed in on God's grace in Christ. Not that we aren't saved, but that we aren't fully living the life we can in Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
Some have argued 1 John as their supporting text for falling away from salvation. I do not see 1 John this way, however. I see 1 John as an encouragement for those that still struggle with sin and the old man. Thus John writes, 'If we sin.' Most people assume that John is writing a hypothetical situation, but he is really using in the sense of 'in case.' Paul often used the 'if' not to set up a hypothetical situation, but to speak of a real possibility. In Galatians 1:8 he says, 'But even if we, or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.' Of course, that is exactly the problem that the Galatians were having, people were in fact preaching a different gospel to them other than what Paul had preached. It wasn't a hypothetical situation, it was actually happening. And when it comes to sin, Paul had this to say in Gal. 6:1, 'Brethren, if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself so that you too will not be tempted.' Paul understood that some of us will fall when tempted and sin; he was not presenting a hypothetical situation, he was teaching what those 'who are spiritual' should do when, not if, the situation arises.
Is it a hypothetical situation that John poses in 1 John 1:5, 'if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin?' Or is John saying 'when we walk in the light.' Or is it only a hypothetical possibility that 'if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness?' It is the same Greek 'if' in those two verses that John uses in 1 John 2:1, 'And if anyone sins....' John is not presenting a hypothetical situation where there is the possibility that one might sin, rather he's telling us that 'When anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.' Just as it is not a hypothetical possibility that 'if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,' rather 'when we say we have not sinned...', it is also not a hypothetical possibly that 'if we sin...' rather 'when we sin.'
No, we should not sin. We should live a victorious life over sin through the power of Jesus Christ the Lord who gives us that power. But the simple fact is that Christians still sin after being born a new creation in Christ Jesus. But the good news is that 'when we sin we have an Advocate with the Father' who will not let us fall under the general condemnation of man and be thrown into the lake of fire. We will be restored to a right relationship with our Father when we confess that we have indeed sinned, which not only grieves Him, but should also cause us sorrow because we have grieved Him.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
That's a lot to take in, about the hypotheticals and everything. I'm going to take some time and look into it. Yet, with my view of 1 John ch. 1 aside, if God provides a way out of every temptation we face, we can certainly live a sinless life. That would agree with John saying "if we sin", as in it's possible to live a sinless life. So let me look at what you mentioned here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The believer still needs to acknowlege his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 in order to be in fellowship under the filling of the Holy Spirit and therefore in a status of being spiritual, rather than under the control of his old sin nature and therefore carnal. The believer who never names his sins to God remains in a perpetual state of carnality and cannot grow spiritually.
Can you elobarate on what "a perpetual state of carnality" means.
Last edited by Heavenese; 03-07-2013 at 11:21 AM..
Acknowledging your sins is a recognition of God's grace. It is a recognition that your sins were judged and paid for at the cross. And by simply naming your sin to God you are agreeing with God that you sinned. When you name the sin to God, He immediately forgives the sin and you are back in fellowship. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of salvation, but with the daily, moment by moment fellowship with God. When the believer sins he becomes carnal and is therefore out of fellowship. In order to regain that fellowship the believer simply agrees with God (by naming it) that He sinned. God recognizes that the sin was already judged at the cross and He forgives it and forgets it.
I think we're not far apart on God's grace, and the application thereof - but if Christ's offering was compared to the offering of bulls and goats (Hebrews 9:13-14 - how much more will His blood purge your conscience?) then we can compare the two elements of sacrifice, and the attitude and environment in which they were made...
In the tradition of yearly sacrifice, the priest would examine ***not the man but the sacrifice***, for it was not questioned if the man and his family were sinful, but if the sacrifice was without blemish. Every study done on this subject strongly suggests that the priest never even glanced at the person, but looked intently at the one that was to be the offering.
A perfect illustration of what the Father looks at when we (the sinner and the Judge) come to the place of falling short. God knows much better than we (understatement) that our righteousness is a severe failure, and to not lay claim to His blood is both a lack of faith, and a damning to ourselves. Every place in Jesus' ministry where someone would boast in their works, He would compound the burden until they broke (see the rich young ruler). I believe it's the same with us - if we want to be judged according to our works, He uses the law to measure.
Where sin increased (Greek: auxano - to grow, having a measure) grace much more abounded (Greek: perisseuo - to exceed a fixed number of measure, cannot be measured).
If the question is "should we confess to be forgiven?" then I will submit that our attitude should be to look at the Lamb intently as Abraham followed the Lord - did he sin? Yes. Was it counted against him? No.
Originally Posted by Mike555
The believer still needs to acknowlege his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9 in order to be in fellowship under the filling of the Holy Spirit and therefore in a status of being spiritual, rather than under the control of his old sin nature and therefore carnal. The believer who never names his sins to God remains in a perpetual state of carnality and cannot grow spiritually.
Quote:
Can you elobarate on what "a perpetual state of carnality" means.
The moment a person is eternally saved through faith in Jesus Christ he is both indwelt and filled with the Holy Spirit. While the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent, the filling of the Holy Spirit is lost the first time the new believer sins. That is why the believer is commanded to be filled with the Sprit. Eph 5:18 And don't get drunk with wine, which leads to reckless actions, but be filled by the Spirit: To regain the filling of the Holy Spirit that sin must be named as per 1 John 1:9.
When the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit he is spiritual. He is under the control of the Holy Spirit and able to progress in his spiritual life through both the intake and application of the Word of God. Only when the believer is filled with the Spirit is he able to metabolize Bible doctrine into his soul for application to his life. It is the difference between gnosis and epignosis. All Bible doctrine when first learned is gnosis - academic knowledge only. For it to become epignosis the believer must be filled with the Spirit and believe the particular Bible doctrine in question. Then it is God the Holy Spirit who converts gnosis into epignosis which is the metabolization of God's word. Jeremiah 15:16'Your words were found and I ate them, And Your words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart; For I have been called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts'
1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge (epignosis - discernment - real knowledge) of the truth.
Now, when the believer does not name his sin to God the Father, he remains under the control of his old sin nature - his Adamic nature and is said to be carnal. If he never names his sin then he never regains the filling of the Spirit and is perpetually carnal.
What about sins you don't know are sins? How can you name a sin if you don't know it's a sin? That's one reason you need to learn what sin is. But when you get out of fellowship though an unknown sin, it won't be long before you commit a sin which you know is a sin. And when you do, and you name it to God, He forgives that sin and the sin you didn't know was a sin. The same thing applies to sins you have forgotten about. 1 John 1:9 If we (believers - John included himself) confess (name, cite, identify, acknowledge) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Here is a diagram, a teaching aid which helps to explain what I'm saying. >>>Old Man / New Man (Visual) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX The top circle is the believer's eternal security. He can never get out of the top circle. The bottom circle is the believer's temporal relationship with God. Sin takes you out of the bottom circle, and acknowledging your sin places you back in the bottom circle. Inside the bottom circle the believer is spiritual. Outside of the bottom circle the believer is carnal.
I think we're not far apart on God's grace, and the application thereof - but if Christ's offering was compared to the offering of bulls and goats (Hebrews 9:13-14 - how much more will His blood purge your conscience?) then we can compare the two elements of sacrifice, and the attitude and environment in which they were made...
In the tradition of yearly sacrifice, the priest would examine ***not the man but the sacrifice***, for it was not questioned if the man and his family were sinful, but if the sacrifice was without blemish. Every study done on this subject strongly suggests that the priest never even glanced at the person, but looked intently at the one that was to be the offering.
A perfect illustration of what the Father looks at when we (the sinner and the Judge) come to the place of falling short. God knows much better than we (understatement) that our righteousness is a severe failure, and to not lay claim to His blood is both a lack of faith, and a damning to ourselves. Every place in Jesus' ministry where someone would boast in their works, He would compound the burden until they broke (see the rich young ruler). I believe it's the same with us - if we want to be judged according to our works, He uses the law to measure.
Where sin increased (Greek: auxano - to grow, having a measure) grace much more abounded (Greek: perisseuo - to exceed a fixed number of measure, cannot be measured).
If the question is "should we confess to be forgiven?" then I will submit that our attitude should be to look at the Lamb intently as Abraham followed the Lord - did he sin? Yes. Was it counted against him? No.
If you will look at post #79 which I just posted, you will get a better idea of what I am saying. And click on the link to the diagram I provided.
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