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This is exactly what the Christian Gnostics were teaching, that the only sin that can be committed for a Christian is in the flesh, and that the spirit remained sinless. This is exactly they kind of reasoning that John was arguing about in 1 John. Sin is always in the flesh, whether before our conversion or after our conversion. The only difference between our old man and our new creature is that we can, precisely because we have been renewed in the spirit, live a life of victory over sin through Christ Jesus.
The gnostics have a very different view of the world than us Christians. They don't believe the world was created perfect (I don't know if you believe in the literal Genesis), but it was created just as we see it today. So technically even though they say creation is corrupt, they said it was created corrupt. In other words, Jesus didn't come to restore us back into right relation with God, but He came to bring us knowledge on how to reach enlightenment. That is not what I'm saying here.
What I'm saying is when you are born again, you're given a new spirit. Formed after Christ. This new spirit is perfect, if not the Holy Spirit couldn't indwell us without destoying us. (God and corruption can't be in the same place. Scripture tells us God is like a consuming fire, any corruption will be burned up in His presence.) So if you sin after receiving this new spirit in Christ, it's not because your spirit was tempted to sin. It's because of your body, the only thing that remains of the old nature. The key to not sinning (yes a Christian can sin), is to renew your mind to your born again spirit.
So I'm not saying Christians don't sin. I'm showing the way to not sin, and literally live a blameless life.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
What is the difference between David's confession and the Christian's confession of sin? Remember that it was not any sacrifice that made Abraham righteous, rather it was his faith. The only point of the Law was to show that man is sinful. The Law didn't decrease sin, not even when a sacrifice was made, it increased sin because after the Law was given man was abundantly aware of what sin was! David confessed his sin and was brought back into a right relationship with God, not for the maintaining of his salvation, but for proper fellowship with God. It was neither his offering of a bull or goat, nor his confession of his sin with Bathsheeba that saved him, it was his faith in God. That has always been the case throughout the ages: It is by grace through faith that we are saved.
David's confession came on the heels of the prophet confronting him. David was punished for his sin (I'm referring to his adultery with Bathsheba, and the murder of Uriah), yet it was tempered with mercy. God punished David by not letting the sword depart from his house, and God also took the child that resulted from David's sin. This is why David said blessed is the man who God does not impute sin, he was prophesying to our day. Now if we sin, there may be natural consequences, but we won't be punished like David was punished. Because those sins aren't imputed to us, for the sake of Jesus.
Abraham lived before the Law. David was punished for his sins, Moses as well with his error at Kadesh, yet Abraham lied twice and he wasn't punished for them. There is no account that said Abraham confessed to his lying. Also, Abraham doubted God, by presenting Ishmael before Him as the promised heir. There is no record of Abraham ever having to confess this to God. Abraham was considered a righteous man, and there is no evidence in Scripture that he ever confessed to doing anything wrong. (When he did wrong things. The Ten Commandments says lying lips is an abomination to God)
So this idea of continually confessing sins, is a result of the Ten Commandments. What the Ten did was make our minds conscious of who we are. As you say sin increased as a result of the Law. With it's increase, you will continually confess about sin until the day you die. Not that confession of sins in the OT is bad, but that is the most you will do with the Law in mind. Under grace, sin has no dominion over us. So instead of confessing sin, and being sin conscious, we confess God's righteousness. We confess who we are in Christ, changing our minds about how we see ourselves. Once we realize the power God has given us, that is when we will not sin and live blameless.
Again I want to make this clear, I'm not saying Christians don't sin after salvation. I'm not saying it's alright to sin after salvation. I'm saying we don't have to sin, after salvation. That it's possible to not sin, after salvation. To those who believe in confession of sins, the end all is that we will sin again, and again, and again until the day we die. You never see a day on this earth, when we are walking blameless.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
It is not just in the old self that we can be tempted, it is in the flesh. 'Oh wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of sin?!' Yes, if we live by the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh which if acted upon leads to sin (and of course it's in the flesh). We are crucified with Christ and dead to sin, but that does not mean that we do not sin, though we should not and we do have the power through Christ to live such a sinless life. Yet there is the very real fact that Christians do sometimes stumble, and sometimes it's a very great fall, but it is not because we haven't truly repented of sin, it's that we haven't grown and as a side effect to that, we are not properly armed (equipped) to withstand all of Satan's fiery darts. But let's not blame him for our temptations and sins because James tells us that 'each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lusts, and enticed.' (Jms 1.14) But is not the desire that is sin, it's the acting upon that desire that becomes sin. 'Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin.' (Jms 1.15) The only way to live by the Spirit is to continually renew our minds (Rom. 12:2, 1 Pt. 1-2) by putting
on the Lord Jesus Christ, and not making any provision for the flesh. (Rom. 13:14) We are made painfully aware that the flesh is corruptable by our own desires, and giving into them is the path of sin. But we do have a 'way of escape' from temptation, and that is turning to God, standing fast armed to the teeth in the armor of God. But sometimes we have to make a hasty retreat, knowing that we cannot stand, the way of escape often is just to get out of the situation we have placed ourselves in in the first place.
My thing is if it's possible to get out of every temptation so we won't sin, that God provides a way out of every one of them, don't you think that says right there it is possible to not sin? Yet from what I understand, you are saying we will sin as long as we are on this earth. That it is expected we will sin, no matter how mature we are in Christ. That doesn't agree with the statement God provides a way out of temptation.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
You're going to have to explain what you mean by 'tempt you in the spirit,' because I have no idea what that is. There are three areas in which we are tempted: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life. (1 Jn. 2:16) If by 'tempt you in the spirit' you are referring to the latter area of temptation, I can see where you might be coming from though even this kind of temptation is still 'in the world'. But no one is free from temptation, even Christ Jesus our Lord was 'in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.' (Heb. 4:15) Jesus' desires were in step with God's will, and for that the man Jesus was able to be tempted and not sin.
I agree with you, that if we walk by the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh and thereby sin. But when (if) we do, we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous who, upon our acknowledgement that we as Christians have sinned, restore us. The problem with the Gnostic teaching was that it didn't matter if anyone sinned in the flesh, it was a corruptible creation anyway, just don't sin in the spirit (whatever that means). That is the heresy that John was confronting in 1 John, that there is not such thing as a difference between sins of the flesh and sins of the spirit: it's all sin.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Satan can't tempt us from our spirit, to sin. As you said when we are tempted, we are drawn away by our own lust. If we have lust in our spirit to sin, our spirit is corrupt, and not in the likeness of God. Unless you say God is drawn to sin as well? The only part about us, that still has a desire to sin, is our body. Our bodies are still off the mark, and that is the only part of us that can be drawn to sin. Our mind is used to the body's feeling, it's natural. This is why we must renew our mind to our new born again spirit. When we are thinking with our new spirit, we are able to live like Jesus lived, and not sin. Jesus was tempted in every way, the enemy shot thoughts at Him like he does us. Yet there is one clear difference. Jesus' body wasn't corrupt, nor was His spirit. So He actually had a choice not to sin, just like Adam had a choice not to eat from that certain tree. Yet for our bodies, sinning is as common as there are stars in the universe. The only way we can overcome sin, is through our new spirit, the only part that was made perfect at salvation.
Let me say it this way. Do you expect to sin once you get to Heaven? Do you expect to sin when you're in Heaven? No, you don't. It's mainly because you are no longer connected to this body. That is why you renew the mind, and if you do, you can have that sinless life right now here on this earth. Because you have disciplined your body into the obedience of Christ.
When it comes to the definition of repentance, all it means is to change your mind. There's no room for grieving or confessing, though a changed mind confesses. (You are going to speak what's in your heart) When it comes to sin, whether we commit it or not, my mind still acknowledges it as sin. If I had to change my mind about it, it would mean I didn't know it was sin, which means I'm not saved. For instance, if I had sex with someone's wife, and I didn't know that was a sin, then I'm not saved. It shouldn't be a matter of confessing, "I have sinned, God forgive me." I knew it was sin from the get go, and thus my mind hasn't changed about what is sin and what's not.
Repentance doesn't simply mean 'change your mind' but it is an aspect it. The word repent as a command is used in the military to mean, turn around and go the other way, or 'to the rear march.' In thought life, it means to turn away from a train of thought and go the other way. When we repent, we are turning away from what we once thought about sin and go in the opposite direction, we turn way from it. One can change his mind of his original thought about sin, and yet not turn away from them. True repentance does both, which is why confession is so integrally part of true repentance. We're not just turning away from sin, we're agreeing with God about sin. If we don't agree with God about our sin, why would we turn from it in the first place. That is why I said that you can't have true repentance without confession, but true confession also involves repentance. We can truly repent about out sin, yet still fall victim to our own desires and sin, it doesn't mean we haven't truly repented.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
Now if I committed the act because I fell into temptation of the body, I need to confess that to the people who I offended, (The woman's husband, her family, my family, all who were affected by this act) and deal with the natural consequences of my actions. Yet the sin itself is judged on Christ, because I'm in Christ. The only thing that would hinder my relationship with the Father, is not if I confess it as sin because I already know it's sin, but if I let this sin condemn me from the Father. That I feel like I have to do something to restore any kind of connection back to Him. Any kind of connection.
All I have to do is remember who I am in Christ. I didn't commit the sin in Christ, I did it of my own accord to fulfill the lust of my body. When I see myself in Christ, then I walk as He walked. This is the spiritual connection we have in Him. So that's what I mean when I say we repent about sin, once. Yet for God's grace, we only go deeper in that, so we change our mind about His grace all the time.
I don't know why you differentiate between 'temptation of the body' as opposed to any other kind of temptation, it's all in the flesh.
All sin is against God, that is why David cried out 'Against You have I sinned.' But the sin was committed with and against both Bathsheba and her husband Uriah. David didn't have to confess to them to be restored unto right fellowship with God, rather it was to God. The same hold true for us, all of our sin is against God, and so proper confession is to Him. The reason we confess our sins to someone that we have offended is so that we can be restored (reconciled) to a right fellowship with them and God. But all we have to do is seek their forgiveness, we don't have to actually receive it from them, that's between them and God. If we know that we have committed a sin that involves someone else (hate, lying, theft, etc.) we are to confess that to them, but we are also to acknowledge that sin to God. Confession is always about relationship for a Christian, whether it's our relationship with each other or with God.
All sin 'condemns' us before the Father. The problems is that the word condemn has two different applications. There is the condemnation (judgment) that we have outside of Christ's righteousness. This is the condemnation that the world has and leads to the second death, the lake of fire. But we as Christians also have a condemnation against us when we allow ourselves to be overcome by out desires and sin. God will judge us for disciplines sake in order to bring us to repentance and into a restored fellowship with Him.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
I don't think the rebuke is so much towards the man, but to the church. That they should have dismissed such a person a long time ago, so that his spirit would be saved. Of course again, I take that to mean this man wasn't saved. Another way of looking at it is the Corinthians themselves. They were doing some pretty sinful stuff as well, but Paul didn't tell that everyone who were doing these things to be dismissed for the destruction of their body. He told them to examine themselves. Yet about this one man, Paul said dismiss him. So there is a good case this man wasn't saved, he wasn't apart of the brethren.
Look again at the passage.
For thogh absent in the body, I am present in spriti; ans as if present, I have already pronounced judgement on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present as well, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to diliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Note that Paul has 'already pronounced judgment.' The rebuke is not to the church, though he does rebuke them for their 'tolerance' of his sin, but is to the man himself. Any such rebuke toward a sinner is of no consequence, they are already in Satan's power and outside of any Church discipline. No, rather Paul is using Church discipline and judging the man because the church in Corinth would not. So his instruction is for them to do what he has already done while away from them, to join together as a church and subject the man to church discipline in such a way that Satan would destroy his flesh, but notice the result, 'that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.' Paul didn't consider this man as unsaved, it would be rather presumptuous to submit him to church discipline if he was, but thought of him as a believer. He was obviously practicing sin, that is, living a lifestyle of sin as a believer. Why did he live like this, because he was under the wrong impression that God's grace would abound even more. Late in the the chapter Paul asks, 'Is it not hose inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you.'" (1 Cor. 5:12) The problem was not that this sexually immoral adulterer was an unbeliever, but that he was a believer! He was not only sinning in adultery, he was boasting about the grace that was being shown to him because of his sin.
We should also note that in the destruction of his flesh, his spirit would 'be saved in the day of the Lord.' There is not indication from the scripture that the destruction of his flesh was for repentance unto salvation. What Paul was saying is that his saved soul, though he was arrogantly sinning in such a way that even the heathens didn't sin, in his death through the destruction of his flesh, would still remain saved in the day of the Lord. I'm sure that Paul prayed that he would come to repentance and be restored to fellowship with both other believers, since they were to have nothing to do with him, and with God, since the man would be under discipline. In his repentance, he would have to acknowledge that his action, while he knew it to be sin, was wrong. He knew it was sin, there is no doubt about it, but he also believed that God's grace out abound even more because of it. This was of course a twisted teaching that Paul addressed to the Roman church specifically. (Romans 6, vs 1-3 and 15-17 especially)
Yes, the church in Corinth was wrong in many areas and needed Paul's rebuke and correction, but the man committing adultery with his step-mother was pointed out especially for church discipline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenese
Yet I've just been thinking, if confession of sins were so important, why isn't this a main thing talked about in the Gospels? Jesus rebuked His disciples all the time about having a lack of faith, that they forgot the miracles He did, and was amazed each time He did something wonderful. (Not that they weren't amazing, it was just their amazement came from unbelief) Why didn't Jesus ever say, "Confess your sins Peter" or "Confess your sins John"? In the book of Acts, why don't we see Christians confessing their sins throughout? If this was such an important teaching for continued spiritual growth, why so little if any focus on it? In that Hebrews verse you mentioned, it actually says we can lay aside the sin that so easily entangles us. If we can lay aside that sin, we can certainly lay aside the ones that don't entangle us easily.
It is interesting that we can read all of Christ's words, and not see that we have to acknowledge what He said is true. This is confession, and it's also a level of faith. Repentance, faith and confession are so intertwined that they are not really separate things at all, but one. Our faith brings about repentance, but repentance also means that we have to agree not only that we need to repent, but why we need to repent. Faith is assent, that we believe what Christ has said to be true, we acknowledge the truth of His words, so we see that confession is an integral part of faith. It is also an integral part of repentance. All of His reaching was to show us that we need to repent and confess, that is, to acknowledge that what God has said is true and turn from our wicked ways toward Him.
When Jesus asked, 'Peter, do you love me?' He was looking for Peter to confess, that is, to same the same thing. But Peter didn't, at least not to the same level that Jesus was asking. Peter's response that he loved Jesus was not the agape love that Jesus was asking, but a brotherly love to Him. Thomas, when he finally saw the risen Christ and felt the wholes in his hands and sides confessed, 'My Lord and my God.' Paul tells us that confession is made to salvation. (Rom. 10:9-10) If and when we as Christians sin, because we have fallen to our own desires, we have damaged our own relationship with God and His Son. Confession is quite simply acknowledging that we have sinned, and to deny that brings about the Discipline of our Father, who loves us and desires us to be conformed into the image of His Son. There is this whole unbiblical idea of asking for forgiveness, we don't, we simply receive it by God's grace through faith. This is true both of the unsaved and for those who are saved.
Obviously there is something that has you hung up on the scriptural idea of confession. I can't argue something you are so vehemently against without understanding the history of why you are so violently opposed to it. The simple fact is that sin hinders our fellowship with God, His Son and with each other. You say that all we have to do is turn to God and acknowledge our righteousness in Christ, but that seems to also mean to deny that we have sinned. John spoke against just such a thing in his letter. We cannot say that we have not sinned simply because we turn and acknowledge our righteousness in Christ. The very fact that we do turn and plead that righteousness is because we have sinned and are aware of it. That is confession: you cannot turn from something you don't acknowledge as sin.
Repentance doesn't simply mean 'change your mind' but it is an aspect it. The word repent as a command is used in the military to mean, turn around and go the other way, or 'to the rear march.' In thought life, it means to turn away from a train of thought and go the other way. When we repent, we are turning away from what we once thought about sin and go in the opposite direction, we turn way from it. One can change his mind of his original thought about sin, and yet not turn away from them. True repentance does both, which is why confession is so integrally part of true repentance. We're not just turning away from sin, we're agreeing with God about sin. If we don't agree with God about our sin, why would we turn from it in the first place. That is why I said that you can't have true repentance without confession, but true confession also involves repentance. We can truly repent about out sin, yet still fall victim to our own desires and sin, it doesn't mean we haven't truly repented.
Look at the word in the greek, "Metanoia". It literally means to change your mind. Changing your mind is the key to what you do. For the most part, what I do, I'm pretty sure I thought about it first. So that is the word used for repentance throughout the NT. There's no room for sorrow and being sorrowful in that definition, which is how many people see repentance. Anything you confess, comes from what you are thinking, what is in your heart.
I get hung up on the phrase, "When you confess your sins, you are agreeing with God about sin". I don't understand that because I already agree with God about sin. If that was the true definition of repentance, there is no need for me to do that again. That if I did it, it would mean I didn't know what sin was. So this is what I'm talking on. We should already agree with God on sin, what is there to disagree about? Our focus shouldn't be there, because we know what sin is, our focus should be on who we are in Christ. That takes a continuous renewing of the mind. I repent about grace all the time.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
I don't know why you differentiate between 'temptation of the body' as opposed to any other kind of temptation, it's all in the flesh.
Flesh means the body and everything associated with it's results. Sometimes I hate using the term "flesh", because it's such an old word. If the King James Bible was written in this day and age, it would simply say "body" and the works of the "body". Pretty much everything dealing with this now corrupt creation, which has been corrupt since the fall of man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
All sin is against God, that is why David cried out 'Against You have I sinned.' But the sin was committed with and against both Bathsheba and her husband Uriah. David didn't have to confess to them to be restored unto right fellowship with God, rather it was to God. The same hold true for us, all of our sin is against God, and so proper confession is to Him. The reason we confess our sins to someone that we have offended is so that we can be restored (reconciled) to a right fellowship with them and God. But all we have to do is seek their forgiveness, we don't have to actually receive it from them, that's between them and God. If we know that we have committed a sin that involves someone else (hate, lying, theft, etc.) we are to confess that to them, but we are also to acknowledge that sin to God. Confession is always about relationship for a Christian, whether it's our relationship with each other or with God.
David was punished for his sins. In fact, people died as a result of his sins, yet that kind of punishment won't be dealt on us. You don't think the people in the OT, meaning all of Israel, didn't constantly confess their sins under the Law? So confession of sins is not something unique to the believer, in fact it comes from dwelling on sins. Jesus provided us a permanent sacrifice for all sin, so we can walk in newness of life. How can we walk in newness, if we are confessing sins as much as the people did under the Law?
I think what you're going to say to that, is that you're not saying our sins disconnect us from salvation. That our confession of sins is not a seeking to be saved again. I understand you there very well. But I believe what you are doing, is mixing in law with grace. Surely grace's end all be all, is to not continually offer up confession, so we can be in right relationship with God. (and I'm not referring to salvation relationship) Surely God's grace, His better covenant, helps us to get pass that stage, or else this covenant isn't any better than the Law in that regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
Look again at the passage.
For thogh absent in the body, I am present in spriti; ans as if present, I have already pronounced judgement on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present as well, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to diliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Note that Paul has 'already pronounced judgment.' The rebuke is not to the church, though he does rebuke them for their 'tolerance' of his sin, but is to the man himself. Any such rebuke toward a sinner is of no consequence, they are already in Satan's power and outside of any Church discipline. No, rather Paul is using Church discipline and judging the man because the church in Corinth would not. So his instruction is for them to do what he has already done while away from them, to join together as a church and subject the man to church discipline in such a way that Satan would destroy his flesh, but notice the result, 'that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.' Paul didn't consider this man as unsaved, it would be rather presumptuous to submit him to church discipline if he was, but thought of him as a believer. He was obviously practicing sin, that is, living a lifestyle of sin as a believer. Why did he live like this, because he was under the wrong impression that God's grace would abound even more. Late in the the chapter Paul asks, 'Is it not hose inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you.'" (1 Cor. 5:12) The problem was not that this sexually immoral adulterer was an unbeliever, but that he was a believer! He was not only sinning in adultery, he was boasting about the grace that was being shown to him because of his sin.
We should also note that in the destruction of his flesh, his spirit would 'be saved in the day of the Lord.' There is not indication from the scripture that the destruction of his flesh was for repentance unto salvation. What Paul was saying is that his saved soul, though he was arrogantly sinning in such a way that even the heathens didn't sin, in his death through the destruction of his flesh, would still remain saved in the day of the Lord. I'm sure that Paul prayed that he would come to repentance and be restored to fellowship with both other believers, since they were to have nothing to do with him, and with God, since the man would be under discipline. In his repentance, he would have to acknowledge that his action, while he knew it to be sin, was wrong. He knew it was sin, there is no doubt about it, but he also believed that God's grace out abound even more because of it. This was of course a twisted teaching that Paul addressed to the Roman church specifically. (Romans 6, vs 1-3 and 15-17 especially)
Yes, the church in Corinth was wrong in many areas and needed Paul's rebuke and correction, but the man committing adultery with his step-mother was pointed out especially for church discipline.
I could see Paul saying give this man over for the destruction of his body, so his spirit can be saved meaning that he is already saved. In essence, let him die now. Yet from the way he was talking about this man, and comparing it to how he talked to the Corinthians, it sure sound like this guy wasn't saved. I'm sure this man having sex with his father's wife, wasn't the worst sin going on in that church. He specifically singles this one guy out (and I'm sure Paul had more information on this guy than he mentions in his letter. So he would have known if this guy was saved or not), and tells them to let this guy go. Now imagine if they didn't let this guy go, and his spirit wasn't then going to be saved? That sure sounds like someone who was not a brother in that end scenario. Even in your mention of 1 Corinthians 5: 12, Paul says God judges those on the outside and made reference of Scripture that says to put away from yourselves the evil person. So this pretty much confirms this guy wasn't saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
It is interesting that we can read all of Christ's words, and not see that we have to acknowledge what He said is true. This is confession, and it's also a level of faith. Repentance, faith and confession are so intertwined that they are not really separate things at all, but one. Our faith brings about repentance, but repentance also means that we have to agree not only that we need to repent, but why we need to repent. Faith is assent, that we believe what Christ has said to be true, we acknowledge the truth of His words, so we see that confession is an integral part of faith. It is also an integral part of repentance. All of His reaching was to show us that we need to repent and confess, that is, to acknowledge that what God has said is true and turn from our wicked ways toward Him.
When Jesus asked, 'Peter, do you love me?' He was looking for Peter to confess, that is, to same the same thing. But Peter didn't, at least not to the same level that Jesus was asking. Peter's response that he loved Jesus was not the agape love that Jesus was asking, but a brotherly love to Him. Thomas, when he finally saw the risen Christ and felt the wholes in his hands and sides confessed, 'My Lord and my God.' Paul tells us that confession is made to salvation. (Rom. 10:9-10) If and when we as Christians sin, because we have fallen to our own desires, we have damaged our own relationship with God and His Son. Confession is quite simply acknowledging that we have sinned, and to deny that brings about the Discipline of our Father, who loves us and desires us to be conformed into the image of His Son. There is this whole unbiblical idea of asking for forgiveness, we don't, we simply receive it by God's grace through faith. This is true both of the unsaved and for those who are saved.
Obviously there is something that has you hung up on the scriptural idea of confession. I can't argue something you are so vehemently against without understanding the history of why you are so violently opposed to it. The simple fact is that sin hinders our fellowship with God, His Son and with each other. You say that all we have to do is turn to God and acknowledge our righteousness in Christ, but that seems to also mean to deny that we have sinned. John spoke against just such a thing in his letter. We cannot say that we have not sinned simply because we turn and acknowledge our righteousness in Christ. The very fact that we do turn and plead that righteousness is because we have sinned and are aware of it. That is confession: you cannot turn from something you don't acknowledge as sin.
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Yet again Jesus didn't tell Peter to confess his sin. All He said was, "Do you love Me?" As you mentioned, Jesus asked him does he love Him with a godly love. Jesus was actually getting Peter to realize his own limits. Before then, Peter boasted on his love for Jesus. Peter told Jesus that even if all the rest of the disciples abandon Him, he would not abandon Him. Yet hours later, Peter is cursing up and down saying he never knew Jesus. That is the result of our flesh, our body's effort. So Jesus was getting Peter to see it is He that loves Peter with a godly love, not the other way around. Our love sucks for better words, and so does all our effort in our bodies strength. It is Jesus' strength that is important, and it is His stregnth that tranforms us.
Jesus never told Peter to confess his sins for proper relationship with the Father. That would have been a primetime example to introduce this teaching to the Church, if that is the main thing God wants us to know.
To understand why I say these things, all you have to do is look at the Church these last two thousand years. We've been confessing sins since forever, yet we are yet to experience anything like what was going on in the Book of Acts. That's not to say God hasn't blessed Christians since then, of course not. Yet miracles are God's confirmation of our word to the people. He's not going to pour out miracles based on faulty teaching. He's not going to confirm something that is not His word. The idea of confessing sins, which originally comes from a misunderstanding of the word "repent", is a wrong teaching.
Last edited by Heavenese; 03-09-2013 at 12:36 PM..
It is clear that you are not understanding the full biblical and theological concept of confession in spite of my explanation that it ks not about constantly admitting our sin.
Somehow you have me pegged as someone who believes that if we sin we have to stop and immediately confess it lest we die and get sent to hell. Or that we somehow become spiritually sick if we don't. I don't.
I do believe that if we say we have no sin as a Christian when we have sinned, we call God a liar. Yes, I believe that we can live a life free from the power of sin, but I also believe that we, while on this earth and in this body will always be subject to 'all that is in this world.' Which is why we have to continually renew our minds and be an active part of our sanctification, being conformed to the image of God's Son.
That is a lifetime of growth and does does happen instantaneously and as such, though we do have the victory over sin and we ate no longer slaves to single, we will find that the old man, which should be dead and buried, raises his nasty head and we fall into the snare of sin. This may be a physical sin, such as adultery, or it may be a thought sin , such as hating our brother (or thinking evil of him). And if, when we come to the altar to partake of the Lord's table, we examine (judge) ourselves and have no regard as to the sin that is in our life, we eat judgement unto ourselves. We are still in that sin even though we are not currently performing that actual sin. We all know that adultery is sin, but that does not not mean that in a time of weakness (which does not happen in an instant but is a symptom of our walk in Christ) a person won't give into temptation of our own desires and sin. How long does that sin stick with us as Christians? Until we go before God and confess that what we have done was wrong, even though we knew it was wrong when we did it. But our relationship with our Lord has suffered up until that point.
You would say that all we have to do then is turn to Christ and remember that he has paid the price for that sin and 'we are are not condemned before the Father.' You would say that is repentance, and you are partially correct because repentance is turning from sin to God. But confession is integral to that repentance since we first have to acknowledge that there is sin to turn away from. Whether it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit himself or the admonition of another Christian, turning away does not happen without first acknowledging there is something to repent of.
I wish you could see the interconnection between the two and the importance for the need to be restored to a healthy relationship with as s result of sin in our life. But I'm afraid that no amount of explanation will show you the biblical truth of the intinterworkings of faith, repentance and confession; that they are in fact facets of each other. I wish you continued blessings in your study and understanding of the scriptures.
God disciplines, or chastens those He loves. This chastening may cause us sorrow for the short term but it is for our good. And 'afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.' (Heb. 12:1-12) God does not chasten His children for doing good but for doing wrong (sinning). If we are being chastened it is because we are not in right standing with Him, this is a fellowship matter as opposed to a salvation matter. He still sees us as His sons and daughters, but if everything was right between us we would not be under the chastening of the Lord.
Of course it isn't about law. I can't imagine where u got that idea, because it wasn't from anything I've said, far from it. When don we come out from under our Father's dicsipline? It is when we turn to Him and acknowledge that He is just in disciplining us. Call it whatever you want to call, but that is confession, and until we acknowledge that we have done something to deserve His discipline, we will stay there. The fact is that God has judged us, that is why he disciplines us and until we judge ourselves, we will remain under His judgment (condemnation, same word).
Yet God Himself doesn't allow us to be tempted by more than we can bare, and He offers a way out of every temptation. Jesus said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. You have to change your mind, because you can't sin in the spirit. Noboby can say we sinned in Jesus, because God is not tempted and nor does He tempt anyone. You can only sin in the flesh, giving into your body's desire. Bottom line is, if God gives a way out of every temptation, then it's certainly possible to take that way out each and every time. Or else what is the point of offering the way out of every temptation?
While it is true that God provides a way of escape from temptation, the simple fact of the matter is that no believer will resist temptation all the time no matter how spiritually mature he becomes. The old sin nature is not the source of sin, but is one source of temptation. The sources of temptation are the world (Satan's cosmic system), the flesh (the Old sin nature), and the devil (Satan does not personally tempt most people). Sin occurs when volition gives in to temptation.
The more spiritually mature a believer comes, the less he will sin, and the sins he commits may change, but he will always get around to sinning at some point. He will always give in to some temptation once in a while.
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All those OT saints lived under the Law. Yes, they trusted God for their righteousness, but they didn't have a complete understanding of it. Part of their understanding was of the Law. God told Joshua to not let the Law depart from his eyes, and I'm assuming all these partrons who lived under the Ten Commandments, followed that same example. As a result, they were conscious of their sinful state. Very conscious. That is why David said blessed in the man to whom God does not impute sin. He was speaking of our day. (Because David was punished for his sin, tempered with grace because of David's confessions and sacrifices) Today we know the full measure of God's grace. That Jesus is our righteousness, literally. This is what we should confess, that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Here, read Ephesians 4: 21-24 which states...
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
The problem of sin and the principle of cleansing of sin through acknowledging that sin to God is common to all dispensations of human history.
No, David was not speaking of our day with his statement in Psalm 32:1-2. Our personal sins were NEVER imputed to us for condemnation. We were all condemned (before we ever commited a personal sin) on the basis of Adam's original sin; not our own personal sins. Our personal sins were all imputed to Christ on the cross. And whenever, at any point in human history, a person places his faith in the Messiah (Jesus Christ) he is imputed with God's very own righteousness just as Abraham was. Our personal sins were never an issue in salvation because Jesus was judged for those sins. The issue in salvation is 'what think you of Jesus?'
But sin in any dispensation is an issue in the believers daily rapport with God. And God disciplines the believer for sin.
Hebrews 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5] and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6] FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7] It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8] But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
What the believer is to confess, acknowledge, cite, identify, is his sin when he commits it just as 1 John 1:9 states. And as I said in post # 85 The following are all synonymous terms for 'confession of sin' and all apply to the believer...
Confess - 1 John 1:9
Judge ourself - 1 Corinthians 11:31
Acknowledge our sins - Jeremiah 3:13 (regarding Israel)
Yield (present, offer) - Romans 6:13; 12:1
Lay aside every weight - Hebrews 12:1
Put off the old man - Ephesians 4:22
I have also mentioned twice now on this thread that Jesus illustrated the principle of confession of sin when He washed the feet of the disciples in John 13:4-12.
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...The parts I bolded is extremely important to living a sinless life. It's only in your old self, that you can be tempted, and thus sin. Satan can't tempt you in the spirit, he can only tempt your body which is weak. You lay aside your old self, by being renewed in your mind. See yourself in Christ, identify yourself in Christ. By doing so, you put on your new self, which is in the likeness of God. This is what you should confess, and I don't mean just saying it to be saying it. Yet change your mind, and you will simply speak what is on your mind. God doesn't want people to keep confessing their sins, and the people themselves have an expectation of sinning again. Too much focus on sin, and that is what the Law did for us, never purging our thoughts from the sin nature. You now have the power to overcome all of that, work and confess that!
Satan personally tempts very few people. He tempted Jesus in the wilderness as per Matthew 4:1-11.
You will never live a sin free life as long as you have your old sin nature. And you will have your old sin nature as long as you are in your present body. You will give in to some temptation or other at times.
You are greatly mistaken to say that God does not want you to confess your sins. That claim contradicts 1 John 1:9 in which John includes himself when he says ''If we confess...''
To think that you will never sin again is arrogant. And arrogance, along with pride is the worst of sins.
I'll end this discussion with a portion of what the Bible knowlege Commentary says concerning 1 John 1:9.
In modern times some have occasionally dened that a Christian needs to confess his sins and ask forgiveness. It is claimed that a believer already has forgiveness in Christ (Eph. 1:7). But this point of view confuses the perfect position which a Christian has in God's Son (by which he is even "seated . . . with Him in the heavenly realms" [Eph. 2:6]) with his needs as a failing individual on earth. What is considered in 1 John 1:9 may be described as "familial" forgiveness. It is perfectly understandable how a son may need to ask his father to forgive him for his faults while at the same time his position within the family is not in jeopardy. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pg. 886]
The Scriptures are clear that the believer must acknowledge his sins. The longer you go without acknowledging your sins, the more time you log in a state of carnality. And as long as you are in a carnal state, you are out of fellowship and under the control of your sin nature.
God disciplines, or chastens those He loves. This chastening may cause us sorrow for the short term but it is for our good. And 'afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.' (Heb. 12:1-12) God does not chasten His children for doing good but for doing wrong (sinning). If we are being chastened it is because we are not in right standing with Him, this is a fellowship matter as opposed to a salvation matter. He still sees us as His sons and daughters, but if everything was right between us we would not be under the chastening of the Lord.
Of course it isn't about law. I can't imagine where u got that idea, because it wasn't from anything I've said, far from it. When don we come out from under our Father's dicsipline? It is when we turn to Him and acknowledge that He is just in disciplining us. Call it whatever you want to call, but that is confession, and until we acknowledge that we have done something to deserve His discipline, we will stay there. The fact is that God has judged us, that is why he disciplines us and until we judge ourselves, we will remain under His judgment (condemnation, same word).
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Yet don't you see confession is made from what you believe? Again, repentance means from the greek "to change the mind". That is the key to everything else. You don't confess what you don't believe.
This brings me back to how I see 1 John ch. 1. The confession he's talking on concerns with that of salvation. He's reviewing the real reason why Jesus came, vs. the gnostic view. The gnostic view of Jesus is completely different from the Christian view, and John was re-establishing that. In ch. 2, he explains the reason why he wrote ch. 1 in that way, is to make sure the believers don't sin. Yet if (if) they do sin, remember Jesus is the propitiation for that sin and all sin. So it's not like your getting away with it, you are recognizing the sin, recognizing it's been payed for in full. You then confess you are the righteousness of God in Christ.
Are you afraid that if we say that, we would just continue to sin, so that grace may abound? Why would we do that? By the way, if we are stead fast in confessing in sin, why would anyone bring up something like "should we sin so that grace may abound"? If we know sin disrupts our relationship with God in any way (in the way that you say), then of course we would know the effects of sin. If Paul preached confession of sin, no one would have brought up an accusation like "should we sin that grace may abound".
Paul taught an abundance on God's grace in Christ. All he preached was Christ crucified, and who he was in Christ. So the accusation came up, should we sin that grace may abound? You're afraid that if we teach confession of sin is wrong, people will begin to sin all the more because of God's grace. Yet Paul didn't advocate sinning. In fact he taught a dead person doesn't sin. That as many of us who were baptised into Christ, were baptized into His death. So we should reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. The key word is reckon. Because even though we truly are alive to Christ, our bodies are still here at this point in time. We still operate in these bodies.
Ultimately, the changing of the mind is talking on seeing yourself in Christ. Stop focusing so much on sin and the old nature. There is nothing you can do to change the body's desires, but focus on submitting your body to the obedience of Christ. The biggest difference between your understanding and my understanding, is that I can see a time of maturity, where we don't sin. While we are still in this age. Literally, Heaven on earth, because we are citizens from Heaven. That is why my username is Heavenese. (Of course I got the name from the Japanese band)
Last edited by Heavenese; 03-09-2013 at 03:50 PM..
While it is true that God provides a way of escape from temptation, the simple fact of the matter is that no believer will resist temptation all the time no matter how spiritually mature he becomes. The old sin nature is not the source of sin, but is one source of temptation. The sources of temptation are the world (Satan's cosmic system), the flesh (the Old sin nature), and the devil (Satan does not personally tempt most people). Sin occurs when volition gives in to temptation.
The more spiritually mature a believer comes, the less he will sin, and the sins he commits may change, but he will always get around to sinning at some point. He will always give in to some temptation once in a while.
This is the main difference between our understandings. If we will always sin while on this earth, then the power Christ's offer us is only a little better than the Law, but still not able to purge our conscience from sin. If our expectation is we will always sin while on this earth, meaning we always have to be sorrowful about something, then Christ's power isn't enough. This is not what Scripture implies at all. Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted to. So likewise in Him, we should be able to do the same. That is why confession of sin as a believer, is a wrong teaching. It's premise is even wrong, because repentance (as most Christians see confession of sins) means to change your mind.
First, you have to realize that Paul was writing to a church he had never seen, so he's going to present somethings that haven't heard from him. Second, you clearly do not accept the scriptural truth of the need to confession, of any form. Third, you continually fail to see the connection between repentance, confession and faith. Forth, you do fail to see the importance of God's discipline on a sinning Christian's life, which should lead us to repentance, not for salvation, but for restoration of our relationship to Him. Fifthly, you do not see the connection of the Gnostic teaching in 1 John and the reason why John is telling them to repent; the fact that hey are sinning in the flesh while pursuing higher spiritual knowledge (sounds much like what you talk about sinning in the flesh but not the spirit). Sixthly, repentance is more than simply a matter of salvation; every time we turn from our sin back to God it is repentance. Sevneth, you keep bringing up this 'constant need' to confess our sins, which I've never said nor lead you to believe. Eight, you seem to understand every 'if' as a hypothetical, when in most cases it presents an actual possibility. Ninth, you are blind to the idea (for some reason or other) that the only reason one turns back to God is because they are painfully away of and have been grieved by their sin that has put them in a less than perfect relationship with their Heavenly Father to begin with.
W
With all of that, how in the world can I possibly continue any conversation in this vein of thought. It's impossible. I completely understand what you are saying, I just wish you can see your own dilenma in your argument; you argue that we just need to turn to God (repentance at its finest) and claim our righteousness in Christ, which we can't do if we don't first acknowledge that we have actually sinned (which is confession in a nutshell)!
You are wrong in that I don't see a time of maturity where we don't sin. But I believe that the great majority of those who are truly part of the Body of Christ will not attain that in this lifetime, not with Jesus' teaching that our thought life is sinful. They are for the most part satisfied with milk and do not want meat. I'm sure that if you asked a great many of the great men of God they would say that they are not completely sinless, though I'm sure they are more closely conformed to the image of Christ when they die than many others are. We will all attain that level of perfection one day, and what a glorious day that will be.
I'll end this discussion with a portion of what the Bible knowlege Commentary says concerning 1 John 1:9.
In modern times some have occasionally dened that a Christian needs to confess his sins and ask forgiveness. It is claimed that a believer already has forgiveness in Christ (Eph. 1:7). But this point of view confuses the perfect position which a Christian has in God's Son (by which he is even "seated . . . with Him in the heavenly realms" [Eph. 2:6]) with his needs as a failing individual on earth. What is considered in 1 John 1:9 may be described as "familial" forgiveness. It is perfectly understandable how a son may need to ask his father to forgive him for his faults while at the same time his position within the family is not in jeopardy. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, pg. 886]
The Scriptures are clear that the believer must acknowledge his sins. The longer you go without acknowledging your sins, the more time you log in a state of carnality. And as long as you are in a carnal state, you are out of fellowship and under the control of your sin nature.
I very much doubt we go to our earthly fathers, and have an expectation of going to our earthly fathers, and telling them we are sorry from time to time. Once we reach maturity, our relationship is actually one of great understanding and happiness. Familial forgiveness doesn't make sense, because that is not how we act with our families. Yes, while growing up, you have bumps in the road. Yet once you are mature, those bumps are gone. Unless you know of a 30 year old son, who's still apologizing for current mistakes, that only teenagers make?
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