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Katie I pointed out how I see the passage and why, I never said you said anything.
My point includes babies, because up to this point you nor anyone else has been able to demonstrate any scriptural exclusion of babies.
The problem is that Twins point of view is not incorrect because he includes babies, it is incorrect because he refuses to see how wonderful it is that NO ONE is excluded from the judgments of God, including Christians and babies. It is important to see why no one is righteous and how that is a GOOD THING even if we may not feel like it is.
I provided scriptures that say there are people who are righteous. Twin used the scripture, "none are righteous." The Bible doesn't contradict itself. The scriptures I provided are very clear and they name specific Biblical characters who WERE righteous. With the amount of scriptures I gave which show people can be righteous, common sense tells you that there has to be more explanation for "none are righteous." The answer, of course, is the context. None are righteous is referring to those who don't believe in God. Paul was referencing Psalm 14 and 53. You can deny that if you want, but it is there. Read it.
I also showed that the word "all" does not always include every single human being. All includes the category of people who are capable of sinning in the verse, "All have sinned and fall short." Babies are not capable of sinning. They don't know right from wrong. And they do NOT inherit sin. The Bible is clear about that also in Ez. 18:20.
I agree that christians will be judged by their works. But babies have nothing to be judged for. They have no sin. They have no works. They cannot sin. They have no concept of right and wrong. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says babies sin, or that babies are sinful. Scriptures tell us that babies have no knowledge of right and wrong.
The problem with you and others is that you've believed in original sin for so long, you can't imagine that you could possibly have been wrong all this time. If you were an honest Bible student, you would research the origin of this doctrine. I've brought up at least 10 times in this thread alone that it began with the gnostics. Look it up!!! Augustine was a member of the gnostic sect called the Manicheans, and was the first to introduce this false doctrine into the RCC in about 600 A.D. Jesus never breathed a word about original sin. Neither did the apostles, or the early church fathers. Why don't you check it out for yourself. Are you afraid of what you might find?
I provided scriptures that say there are people who are righteous. Twin used the scripture, "none are righteous." The Bible doesn't contradict itself. The scriptures I provided are very clear and they name specific Biblical characters who WERE righteous. With the amount of scriptures I gave which show people can be righteous, common sense tells you that there has to be more explanation for "none are righteous." The answer, of course, is the context. None are righteous is referring to those who don't believe in God. Paul was referencing Psalm 14 and 53. You can deny that if you want, but it is there. Read it.
I also showed that the word "all" does not always include every single human being. All includes the category of people who are capable of sinning in the verse, "All have sinned and fall short." Babies are not capable of sinning. They don't know right from wrong. And they do NOT inherit sin. The Bible is clear about that also in Ez. 18:20.
I agree that christians will be judged by their works. But babies have nothing to be judged for. They have no sin. They have no works. They cannot sin. They have no concept of right and wrong. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says babies sin, or that babies are sinful. Scriptures tell us that babies have no knowledge of right and wrong.
The problem with you and others is that you've believed in original sin for so long, you can't imagine that you could possibly have been wrong all this time. If you were an honest Bible student, you would research the origin of this doctrine. I've brought up at least 10 times in this thread alone that it began with the gnostics. Look it up!!! Augustine was a member of the gnostic sect called the Manicheans, and was the first to introduce this false doctrine into the RCC in about 600 A.D. Jesus never breathed a word about original sin. Neither did the apostles, or the early church fathers. Why don't you check it out for yourself. Are you afraid of what you might find?
Katie
Katie, do you believe that babies that died need a savior?
God who is perfect is incapable of creating anything that is not perfect. Adam as created by God was perfect until he used his volition to disobey God at which time he 'FELL'. He then lost his relationship with God until such time as he believed the promise of the coming Messiah which then put him into an unbreakable eternal relationship with God. He acquired a sin nature at the moment he disobeyed God, and even after his eternal salvation retained his old sin nature.
Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. When he sinned he lost his human spirit which is that part of man by which he relates to God.
The word 'soul' is sometimes used for the whole person, but it is also used as that part of man which is immaterial and separate from both the body and the human spirit.
The Bible reveals that the soul, human spirit, and body are three separate parts of man. The following two passages show this distinction.
1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
God requires perfection in those who would have an eternal relationship with Him. Before the fall, Adam's relationship with God was dependant upon obeying God and therefore remaining in his humanly perfect status as he had been created. When he disobeyed God, he died spiritually - his relationship with God had been severed - he lost his human sprit. When he believed God's promise of the Messiah to come he was regenerated. He acquired a human spirit to which God imputed His eternal life and perfect righteousness which qualifed him to spend eternity in the presence of God.
Quote:
The Bible reveals that the soul, human spirit, and body are three separate parts of man
The Scriptures teach man is a soul [nephesh=living being] with a spirit [breath/mind] given by God to every baby that is born. This same spirit/mind returns to God to await the ressurection when the dead in Christ will be awakened, given a new body [flesh and bone as Christ had, instead of flesh and blood] and, for lack of a better way to put it, reunited with his/her spirit/mind.
The reason the words body, soul and spirit [all 3] is used is for emphasis to show us the entire person will be preserved.
Quote:
When he disobeyed God, he died spiritually - his relationship with God had been severed - he lost his human sprit.
If Adam lost his spirit then he would have died a physical death. Remember Adam? He was a dead soul and then God breathed into him the breath [spirit] of LIFE and he became a living nephesh [soul].
When man dies his spirit [breath/mind] returns to God who gave it. Ecc. 12:7
Last edited by mshipmate; 01-09-2012 at 09:55 PM..
Katie, do you believe that babies that died need a savior?
The Scriptures are very clear that those who die without 'hearing with understanding' are innocent.
Ro 10:14,17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, [means to hear with understanding] and hearing by the word of God.
The Scriptures are very clear that those who die without 'hearing with understanding' are innocent.
Ro 10:14,17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, [means to hear with understanding] and hearing by the word of God.
If people would only take the time to research the history of the doctrine of original sin, they would learn it was never accepted before the first 500 years of the church. Instead, they accept the teachings of their denominations.
IMHO, it behooves each of us to search out each and every doctrine we believe to be sure the NT church believed and practiced as we do. Our salvation could depend on it.
Have already answered this question. Go back thru the thread and read our conversations.
Blessings,
Katie
Nevermind the question Katie, it was a direct yes or no question and I don't have the time to go back and attempt to find an answer that may have been answered indirectly.
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And babies are innocent spirits.
