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If Christ eliminated sin then why is it that even after Jesus was resurrected did Paul say the following:
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Paul, knew that sin still was present.
Sin is still with us because it is a failure to control our basic urges to prevent harm to others . . . but it can no longer separate us from God . . . only tarnish/taint the quality and kind of relationship we have and require "refinement" to be made truly worthy. Any such "refinement" is likely to be very unpleasant.
Hi ttrep, I believe that the baby has the potential to sin and will inevitably sin if it grows. It will one day sin and at that point, it will have sin.
I was thinking about Adam and I believe that there had been no serpent or outside influence to deceive Eve, then possibly neither one of them would have ever sinned. They could have lived without ever sinning but Adam's descendants would not be able to do this due to the operation of death. God bless.
Either way the wages of spiritual death is sin then, correct? I mean if your going to say a baby dies because it has spiritual death then it also died with sin because the wages of death is sin (using Eusibius reference from above since he believe to say the wages of sin is death is putting the cart before the horse).
So you see Kate, your still claiming that a baby has inherited sin simply because it inherited death.
I never said a baby dies because of spiritual death. They die because they are human beings. Physical death was passed to them through Adam, not spiritual death. That is exactly what Romans 5:12 says. Death is what gets passed on, not sin. Spiritual death happens when we sin. The wages of sin is (spiritual) death. You seem to mix the two up. As I have pointed out to you several times, the context of Romans 5:1-11 is reconciliation, therefore, it follows that verse 12 continues to speak of spiritual death.
Besides all of that you still have not said that we are created in God's image or not.
Sin is still with us because it is a failure to control our basic urges to prevent harm to others . . . but it can no longer separate us from God . . . only tarnish/taint the quality and kind of relationship we have and require "refinement" to be made truly worthy. Any such "refinement" is likely to be very unpleasant.
That is not what the Bible says. Scriptures say sin separate us from God. Show me the scripture that says sin only tarnishes or taints our relationship with God. Unless you can show this in the Bible, it is nothing more than your opinion.
Hi ttrep, I believe that the baby has the potential to sin and will inevitably sin if it grows. It will one day sin and at that point, it will have sin.
I was thinking about Adam and I believe that there had been no serpent or outside influence to deceive Eve, then possibly neither one of them would have ever sinned. They could have lived without ever sinning but Adam's descendants would not be able to do this due to the operation of death. God bless.
Shana, I don't think it was any different for Adam than it is for us. He sinned because he was tempted. We sin because we are tempted. I don't believe God wanted Adam to succumb to temptation. He knew he would because God knows everything, but I can't imagine He planned for Adam to sin. Think back to the angels. Why did they rebel against God? It all boils down to free will. God gave the angels, Adam and us free will. You have to ask yourself why He did this. IMO, He gave free will because He wanted people to prove to Him that they truly love Him. He didn't want a bunch of little robots who loved Him because they were forced to. This is why He allowed temptation. Free will and temptation is what made the angels and Adam sin. We sin for the same exact reason. We are tempted. Our free will allows us to obey or disobey. We are no different than Adam was. He had no sin nature. Neither do we.
I've given your theory, we sin because we are dying, a lot of thought. I don't believe it is correct. It makes Adam different than us, and I don't think he was different at all. He wasn't dying when he sinned. So if dying didn't cause him to sin, what did? Temptation and free will to choose obedience or disobedience.
This is the theme of the entire Bible. Every Bible character we read about is tempted/tested. This is how God separates those who truly love Him from those who don't.
Thanks for sharing, Katie. I don't believe that we have free will. I do believe that we have a self will and that we can make choices, but I believe that God has and does work on our wills, interferes with our wills, influences our wills to bring about His purposes. And I believe that He, who put the serpent in the garden, who He knew would the serpent would tempt Eve and be successful, did this for a reason. God knows all things and what will happen. We will have to agree to disagree about people being born into death, and this being the reason why the descendants of Adam sin. This is what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 5:12. I believe that sin entered the world through Adam when he sinned and as a result death followed, which is the reason Adam's descendants sin. Thanks again for the discussion.
Have a good day. Hope you are feeling better. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-30-2011 at 07:55 AM..
Reason: spelling error
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is not FROM God.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is FROM the world.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is not listed in The Bible.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is listed in The Dictionary.
God Didn't Give Choices, But 'Commandments'.
"Thou Shall Not..'
Even Jesus said,
IF anyone Wants To DO His Will they shall know
concerning the doctrine whether it is FROM God
or whether I speak on my own authority,
he who speaks FROM himself seeks his own glory...' John 7:17
Thanks for sharing, Katie. I don't believe that we have free will. I do believe that we have a self will and that we can make choices, but I believe that God has and does work on our wills, interferes with our wills, influences our wills to bring about His purposes. And I believe that He, who put the serpent in the garden, who He knew would the serpent would tempt Eve and be successful, did this for a reason. God knows all things and what will happen. We will have to agree to disagree about people being born into death, and this being the reason why the descendants of Adam sin. This is what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 5:12. I believe that sin entered the world through Adam when he sinned and as a result death followed, which is the reason Adam's descendants sin. Thanks again for the discussion.
Have a good day. Hope you are feeling better. God bless.
Thanks Shana. I do feel better today.
I agree with you that God does work His will in us to fulfill His purposes. But we have the free will to oppose God's will. One way or the other though, God will accomplish His purpose whether it be through us or someone else.
Yes, we will have to agree to disagree on the point of why we sin. I am just happy that you don't believe it's because we inherit sin or sin nature. And frankly, I don't think what we believe is going to keep us out of heaven. Our attitude towards God and how we treat others is what will keep us from inheriting eternal life.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is not FROM God.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is FROM the world.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is not listed in The Bible.
The 'doctrine' of (free) will is listed in The Dictionary.
God Didn't Give Choices, But 'Commandments'.
"Thou Shall Not..'
Even Jesus said,
IF anyone Wants To DO His Will they shall know
concerning the doctrine whether it is FROM God
or whether I speak on my own authority,
he who speaks FROM himself seeks his own glory...' John 7:17
Our Will Is Not (free) Of Any Choice.
I disagree with you friend. The idea of free will is written in the Bible. God did not create us to be little robots.
As much as I would love to discuss free will, it is not the topic of this thread. I realize free will has to be a part of the discussion, but having or not having it needs to be discussed in another thread.
That is not what the Bible says. Scriptures say sin separate us from God. Show me the scripture that says sin only tarnishes or taints our relationship with God. Unless you can show this in the Bible, it is nothing more than your opinion.
Kate
What I will add along these lines is something that I believe needs to be considered. I don't think any believer will die sin free, the nature of those sins notwithstanding we will all die in some kind of tarnished state in comparison to God.
Again, we need to quit letting certain words being learned about incorrectly remain rooted in our thinking. God loves us all and we are all on a journey to be one with him, in comparison to what lays ahead, the glory, the wonder, we are in comparison as dirty rags.
Now when most people hear that we are dirty rags they think in terms of how God actually sees us and how we should think of ourselves. But we need to start seeing that it is only a comparison to help us see the fabulous journey that lays ahead of us and be encouraged.
Anyway not to digress too much, there is a scripture that seems to show us that our sins do only tarnish our journey, make it more difficult and prolong the goal of our walk. We have to believe it is a promise to everyone by God without including religious ritualistic thinking.
Hb 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Now, some people will say that God is only making that promise to believers. The reason I say that he has made that promise to everyone is because I can look back, before I ever believed, before I ever really acknowledged God in my life I can see he was there with me, even when I couldn't have cared less. He did not forsake me, even when I lived a life that was a road to my destruction.
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Free Will, Is Secular:
