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Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
I agree with everything you say, except replace 'spiritual death’ with physical death. I think Rom 5:12 is referring to physical death. I know physical death is "the judgment of god". It was ‘god’ in Gen. who 'made' death.
I agree with everything you say, except replace 'spiritual death’ with physical death. I think Rom 5:12 is referring to physical death. I know physical death is "the judgment of god". It was ‘god’ in Gen. who 'made' death.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I said the wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical.
When Adam sinned, the consequence of his sin was both physical and spiritual death. Physical death was passed on to us as a consequence of Adam's sin. But spiritual death comes to us when we sin. We don't die spiritually because of someone else's sin.
Katie,
There is nothing out of context that I'm doing.
All souls are alike to God. There isn't that distinction in which you made earlier. Sin" is not just limited to actions
Ezekeil 18:4 "For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."
The only reason babies die (unexplainable at times) is because of the singular... sin.... :
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"
What Jesus did on the cross did nothing to prevent anybody (including a baby) from dying physically. That was what Paul's point was to the Romans
Romans 5:13-15
"for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command"
God does not just view "sin" as just actions one does and thus because of such action then one dies.... because if that was the case, then no babies should ever die "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command" .
Babies are pure and innocent from the moment of conception A: Not so. That is not what God says: Psalm 51:5
Babies do not need a savior A: No offense,but that is simply an outright hindering of Jesus. Babies most definatly do need a savior. Jesus would be indignant with such statement.
Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
I'm shocked on just how far you're willing to take this ....... there is not one verse that substantiates the claims other than emotional conclusions
Babies do not need a savior ....... wrong
They have nothing to be saved from .... God refutes that by saying "all have sinned" ( that includes babies)
They have no sin to separate them from God ... ! God refutes that by saying
" inclination of the heart is evil all the time"
"the sinful mind is hostile to God"
They are in fellowship with God. They are in fellowship with His Son.
Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Twin,
Did you even bother to read my post about your use of the word "all?"
I can't keep arguing with you about the same scriptures over and over. I have posted how you take things out of context. You don't bother to read or respond when I show you in black and white that you are wrong. There really isn't any more to say. You have your mind made up. It's time to move on my friend.
Did you even bother to read my post about your use of the word "all?"
I can't keep arguing with you about the same scriptures over and over. I have posted how you take things out of context. You don't bother to read or respond when I show you in black and white that you are wrong. There really isn't any more to say. You have your mind made up. It's time to move on my friend.
Katie
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Katie,
Can you refer to what post you think I didn't respond to?
If by your question you mean "why do innocent babies sometimes die," than the answer is simply. The same reason any "innocent" person dies.
We are all in a flesh body that dies. Sometimes it's shortly after birth and sometimes it's old age, but ALL flesh bodies eventually will die.
That's what the words, 'the valley of the shadow of death' means. We all are born, we all will eventually die so we live under the shadow of death. The important question isn't why do innocents die, but is; do you know the Giver of [true] Life?
If so there's no fear of death whether babe or elderly.
This life in a flesh body is only temporal. Believers look forward to immortal life when Christ returns. That is true life.
So then being in a fleshy body that dies is Adam's fault, correct? After all it was Adam that could have taken of the tree of life but didn't and therefore gained death. So that means we inherit death via Adam, correct? And if so, then Babies are being punished for Adam's sin, correct? So therefore if babies are being punished then they are not born innocent, correct?
So then being in a fleshy body that dies is Adam's fault, correct? After all it was Adam that could have taken of the tree of life but didn't and therefore gained death. So that means we inherit death via Adam, correct? And if so, then Babies are being punished for Adam's sin, correct? So therefore if babies are being punished then they are not born innocent, correct?
No to all you questions. Ppl die because they are in a flesh body. It's no one's fault it's just part of life.
Adam was made a flesh and blood person. Whether he sinned or didn't sin he would have still died a physical death. Which he did. Period.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I said the wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical.
When Adam sinned, the consequence of his sin was both physical and spiritual death. Physical death was passed on to us as a consequence of Adam's sin. But spiritual death comes to us when we sin. We don't die spiritually because of someone else's sin.
Katie
I think I agree with you. I just need to know what what do you mean by the extra-biblical term 'spiritual death'?
The Scriptures are very clear that those who die without 'hearing with understanding' are innocent.
Ro 10:14,17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, [means to hear with understanding] and hearing by the word of God.
Eh???...How do you possibly spin this that way?....
No to all you questions. Ppl die because they are in a flesh body. It's no one's fault it's just part of life.
Adam was made a flesh and blood person. Whether he sinned or didn't sin he would have still died a physical death. Which he did. Period.
You don't believe that we die because of Adam. You also say that no matter if Adam sinned or didn't sin he would have still died.
So the following statement means nothing - "The wages of sin is death", correct? If not correct, then what is the significance of sin?
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