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Mystic, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't understand what kind of mumbo-jumbo are you talking about.
I clearly have a choice to believe the Bible is God's Word and thus accept what it says as truth .... or NOT to believe it, and thus reject whatever it may say as a fabrication.
If you truly have to choose to believe . . . then you do not truly believe it.
Quote:
I choose to believe all of the Bible, including the first 10-words "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" --- In spite of a decided lack of empirical evidence (and a lot of junk science), many folks 'choose' to believe otherwise -- Yet, neither of us were there "in the beginning" --- it's all about what we 'choose' to believe (which I choose to believe has a lot more to do with one's accountability to God, than science or anything else).
I chose to believe certain things when I was younger, but experience and age taught me to choose to believe other things. There are a steady stream of things in my life that change my beliefs about people, the world, politics, kids/grandkids, etc. (things I once chose to believe). Only the Bible, like God, is unchanging, timeless and absolutely true, ... but, even there, I have found over many years of study, teaching and preaching, that things I once believed, ... do not stand up to deeper scriptural research and understanding.
There are certain inborn truths that we can neither prove or disprove, but know they exist. For example, 'choose' to believe that when you die, you
simply cease to exist when you get planted in a cold dark hole. .... Now, try to convince your mind, since it refuses to allow you to entertain that thought, other than as a spectator (I'm not talking about the certainty that we will all face physical death).
We may choose to believe or not believe that there is even a God, but, the Bible clearly says, "All have an inborn knowledge of God's eternal power and deity" .... "Even the demons know there is one God and tremble" ... and "The man who says in his heart 'there is no God' is a fool" --- Many make their choice to believe or not believe, not based on what they know in their heart, but, based on some other 'politically correct agenda'
In most things, people choose what they will believe, based on the authority they accept in their life as truth. With me, I believe what the Bible says. Others 'choose' to believe "what their grandmother or father always said' ... or 'what feels true' or 'what they learned in philosophy class' --- In any case, I choose my own 'truth authority' in life.
This does not even began to touch on the things 'reborn believers' began to understand by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. These are things which one can 'choose' to accept ... or reject, by "quenching the fire of the Holy Spirit" -- And those without the Spirit, "consider the things of God to be foolish ... because they are Spiritually discerned" (2 Cor 2:14-15).
--- While this has a decided Spiritual flavor, this is a Christian forum.... And, when one considers things in a temporary earthly context ... OR an eternal context, ... which has the greater basis in "truth"? --- You see, even there, one may 'choose' the temporary over the eternal, but not because that's the truth, but, rather, because one does not 'choose' to accept the implications of one choice over another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Excellently presented. Awesome post!
You and Alpha could not possibly have tried SINCERELY to do what I asked. Inventory your True beliefs about something you are absolutely convinced is NOT true. Then choose To believe it. If you can succeed then you can legitimately claim not to know what I am talking about. But if you cannot choose to believe something you truly feel deeply in your heart is not true . . . and you still want to pretend not to understand what I am saying . . . you will prove that you are simply spouting indoctrinated nonsense about choice.
If you truly have to choose to believe . . . then you do not truly believe it. You and Alpha could not possibly have tried SINCERELY to do what I asked. Inventory your True beliefs about something you are absolutely convinced is NOT true. Then choose To believe it. If you can succeed then you can legitimately claim not to know what I am talking about. But if you cannot choose to believe something you truly feel deeply in your heart is not true . . . and you still want to pretend not to understand what I am saying . . . you will prove that you are simply spouting indoctrinated nonsense about choice.
I think that what you're saying, Mystic, is that to "choose" to believe something means believing what your intellect tells you as opposed to believing what you heart tells you. It's like love in that respect. You can't fall in love with someone because intellectually you think that person would be a good partner for you. You fall in love because you can't help yourself. Belief is a little bit like that. (I'm not saying that your "beliefs" can't make sense to you, because they can. You just don't "choose" them based on a rational inventory of choices.) Most people who believe in God do so because they feel so deeply that He exists that no amount of rational argument or debate could convince them otherwise. This same thing extends to any kind of beliefs of a spiritual nature.
More than anything else on this forum, I think it is this mindset that frustrates me. Why is it that, regardless of the topic being discussed, the implication always seems to be that people who agree with a point of view are labeled as "Christian" and people who don't are labeled as "non-Christian"? It doesn't seem to matter what the topic is. This is just one more example. "UR and Christianity" are not two opposing belief systems. The vast majority of people of this forum who believe in UR do claim to be Christians. It would be equally ludicrous to say "ET and Christianity interpret scripture differently." UR and ET are different ways of looking at scripture, so yes, they interpret scripture differently. That doesn't mean that one group is Christian and the other is not. Why does one group of Christians have to insist on insulting another group of Christians by misrepresenting them as non-Christian?
Mmmm yes, I didn't catch that Katzpur and that really burns me up too. UR's ARE Christians, and it is insulting and downright rude to suggest otherwise.
AMEN! No truer statement has never been made on City-Data. Nobody believes anything by simply willing themselves to.
Moderator cut: insulting
I had to make a deliberate decision to not comitt willfull sin anymore when I first came into the knowledge of the truth...and this still holds true today...and it will be so tomorrow..and all the tomorrows to follow! Belief/faith is action! and it IS! a choice!..It's called repentance!...and no one can turn and repent for you!
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-19-2011 at 07:13 PM..
[quote=Verna Perry;1834644] Moderator cut: orphaned
Let me ask you a question: If someone were to offer you $1 billion dollars to stop believing in God, could you? Note: I'm not asking you if you would, but if you could? Would you be able to deny, even to yourself, that God exists? Would you be able to will yourself to deny what you know in your heart to be true?
Quote:
I had to make a deliberate decision to not comitt willfull sin anymore when I first came into the knowledge of the truth...and this still holds true today...and it will be so tomorrow..and all the tomorrows to follow! Belief/faith is action! and it IS! a choice!..It's called repentance!...and no one can turn and repent for you!
I totally agree, but I'm not talking about a decision as to how to live your life, to try not to sin, to repent when you do, and commit to do better in the future. Of course that's a deliberate decision.
Moderator cut: orphaned
I clearly have a choice to believe the Bible is God's Word and thus accept what it says as truth .... or NOT to believe it, and thus reject whatever it may say as a fabrication. I choose to believe all of the Bible, including the first 10-words "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" --- In spite of a decided lack of empirical evidence (and a lot of junk science), many folks 'choose' to believe otherwise -- Yet, neither of us were there "in the beginning" --- it's all about what we 'choose' to believe (which I choose to believe has a lot more to do with one's accountability to God, than science or anything else).
I chose to believe certain things when I was younger, but experience and age taught me to choose to believe other things. There are a steady stream of things in my life that change my beliefs about people, the world, politics, kids/grandkids, etc. (things I once chose to believe). Only the Bible, like God, is unchanging, timeless and absolutely true, ... but, even there, I have found over many years of study, teaching and preaching, that things I once believed, ... do not stand up to deeper scriptural research and understanding.
There are certain inborn truths that we can neither prove or disprove, but know they exist. For example, 'choose' to believe that when you die, you
simply cease to exist when you get planted in a cold dark hole. .... Now, try to convince your mind, since it refuses to allow you to entertain that thought, other than as a spectator (I'm not talking about the certainty that we will all face physical death).
We may choose to believe or not believe that there is even a God, but, the Bible clearly says, "All have an inborn knowledge of God's eternal power and deity" .... "Even the demons know there is one God and tremble" ... and "The man who says in his heart 'there is no God' is a fool" --- Many make their choice to believe or not believe, not based on what they know in their heart, but, based on some other 'politically correct agenda'
In most things, people choose what they will believe, based on the authority they accept in their life as truth. With me, I believe what the Bible says. Others 'choose' to believe "what their grandmother or father always said' ... or 'what feels true' or 'what they learned in philosophy class' --- In any case, I choose my own 'truth authority' in life.
This does not even began to touch on the things 'reborn believers' began to understand by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. These are things which one can 'choose' to accept ... or reject, by "quenching the fire of the Holy Spirit" -- And those without the Spirit, "consider the things of God to be foolish ... because they are Spiritually discerned" (2 Cor 2:14-15).
--- While this has a decided Spiritual flavor, this is a Christian forum.... And, when one considers things in a temporary earthly context ... OR an eternal context, ... which has the greater basis in "truth"? --- You see, even there, one may 'choose' the temporary over the eternal, but not because that's the truth, but, rather, because one does not 'choose' to accept the implications of one choice over another.
Hey jghorton hows things? One of the main disagreements we have is about free will. I believe it is an idol of the heart that we have to rid ourselves of if we are ever going to understand the true nature of God.
Yes we have a will and we make all our own choices and they are our choices, but what most people don't think through is that every choice we make is a caused choice. Something influences us to make a particular choice out of many options. These choices are the only ones we could have made due to the totality of the circumstance at the time. they are the one our heart desires the most. People will make a choice and later say that they wished they could have or would have made a differant choice but at that time there was something they got out of it that they wanted most of all.
Free will is something the carnal mind want and desires. We like to think that we are in control of our own destiny. Nothing could be farther from the truth. God is in control at all times. How does God know what choices we will make even before they are presented to us? Remember God as seen the end before the beginning. That means he has planned and seen everything that will happen so even though we make the choice it has already been made from God's point of view and can not be any different from what he has already determined will happen.
Predestination mentioned numerous times in the Bible. It says Jesus elect have already been chosen and remember Jesus said you do not choose me I choose you. Peter was told he would deny Christ, could he have decided not to and made Christ a liar? No Jesus knew what Peter would do because it had been planned that way by God. God controls all the circumstance and knows our heart better than we do so for him to steer us to a particular choice is easy for him. Remember God works in you to will and to do his good pleasure.
I have asked people to show me where in the Bible it says we have free will and they will most time point to the passage that says" me and mine choose to serve God( may not be exact quote but gets the jist). Does not say the choice was not a caused choice does it?
People like to throw the term free will around but can't seem to find it in the Bible. They say well of course we have it like its a given. Wanting it and thinking it, is not the same as having it. Free will is an idol of the heart and the sooner we learn that all is of God and that his will, will be done the more we will draw closer to him and begin to understand what his plan for mankind is. If we can not get over the thought of not having free will we will not understand the greatness and true character of God.
I don't think the choise about whether or not to believe God exists, it is about accepting or rejecting Him as your Lord and saviour. Millions of people believe, even Satan believes that God exists, but they choose to reject Him as their Lord and Saviour.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-19-2011 at 03:44 PM..
Verna - with all due respect - you are completely misunderstanding what Katzpur is saying. Completely.
She is saying that believing in God is not a choice. When asked if you could stop believing in God - you said in your own post that:
"I cannot even go there. What is in my heart is Spirit...and Truth.
I walk in the Spirit of Christ...not in the flesh. I live! because of what Jesus has done for me...He's the restorer of my soul...my Redeemer! I have a personal, trusting, faithful relationship with my Father in heaven...His Spirit comforts and guides me every step I take...He is my peace...my joy!...and my hope...my All In All."
You just proved her point. You cannot choose to believe in God or not. You either do in your heart and soul or you do not. You did not choose to believe in God - you have to. It is within you. You could not stop believing in God even if your life depended on it.
If believing in God were a choice - you could choose not to believe in him.
All the other things that you do - trying not to sin, repenting, etc. - those ARE choices. Those are not beliefs - those are actions. You choose to do those things based on your beliefs.
I think you owe Katzpur an apology. It's not a horrible thing. We are all wrong sometimes. You just misunderstood her. There is no crime in that. It happens to all of us.
Verna - with all due respect - you are completely misunderstanding what Katzpur is saying. Completely.
She is saying that believing in God is not a choice. When asked if you could stop believing in God - you said in your own post that:
"I cannot even go there. What is in my heart is Spirit...and Truth.
I walk in the Spirit of Christ...not in the flesh. I live! because of what Jesus has done for me...He's the restorer of my soul...my Redeemer! I have a personal, trusting, faithful relationship with my Father in heaven...His Spirit comforts and guides me every step I take...He is my peace...my joy!...and my hope...my All In All."
You just proved her point. You cannot choose to believe in God or not. You either do in your heart and soul or you do not. You did not choose to believe in God - you have to. It is within you. You could not stop believing in God even if your life depended on it.
If believing in God were a choice - you could choose not to believe in him.
All the other things that you do - trying not to sin, repenting, etc. - those ARE choices. Those are not beliefs - those are actions. You choose to do those things based on your beliefs.
I think you owe Katzpur an apology. It's not a horrible thing. We are all wrong sometimes. You just misunderstood her. There is no crime in that. It happens to all of us.
...and I am saying that I do understand exactly what she is saying Dewdrop. She is saying that believing is NOT A CHOICE!
...and I am saying that believing IS A CHOICE!
Believe = Faith = Trust = Obey = CHOICE!
I have not misunderstood her....and I do not owe her an apology.
...and I am saying that I do understand exactly what she is saying Dewdrop. She is saying that believing is NOT A CHOICE!
...and I am saying that believing IS A CHOICE!
Believe = Faith = Trust = Obey = CHOICE!
I have not misunderstood her....and I do not owe her an apology.
Sigh... You still aren't getting it. Could you choose to not believe in god? By saying that belief is a choice - you are saying that you could choose to not believe in God.
Oh well.
Have a nice day.
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