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Ilene, we are actually in agreement on many things ... such as, that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation in this life and the next. Also, we agree that it is absolutely wonderful to know the true nature of God and His great plan (although we differ in our understanding of that plan). We also somewhat agree on the fact that none of us 'fully' understands God's mind, ways and plan ("Eye has not seen nor mind conceived the things God has planned for those who love Him.")
Our key difference is in whether or not people have any choice or accountability for responding to Jesus Christ in accordance with God's plan; which, by grace alone, results in rebirth and eternal life with God.
The danger and enemy (Satan) gets between people and God's plan in Jesus Christ! While UR is certainly not Satan, it does create a false sense of security in the minds of those who, by your own admission, have "equal Bible-based support for ET or anihlation (your phrase, not mine --- my problem is that the phrase is kind of like 'pro-death' -- How about "pro-grace" or "pro-literal interpretation of the Bible').
While we can agree to disagree on many theological points, there are certain irreducible truths that make ALL the difference in this world and the next. One of those is the essential need to exercise our free-will choice to repent of sin and turn to Jesus Christ for Salvation and Life.
What I do not understand is why the UR folks are so anxious to block people from even considering the possibility of what even they recognize as having 'equal Bible-based support' (In your words, ET and anihlation).
Knowing God loves us is wonderful and comforting, but, according to most of the NT, that is NOT the path to eternal salvation and life. And even the UR folks would have to acknowledge that, by their own philosophy, this principle has no bearing one way or the other, on one's eternal life with God(?). The 'guilt and anguish' used by some to characterize Christians, simply isn't there! -- Christians are the one's who are "free indeed."
Thanks for your response JGHorton, glad we agree on some points. The biggest differences I see are that you believe in free will and I do not, and of course the big pink elephant in the room, UR. God is in complete control over our choices and everything else and He decides who are the elect and who will be the remnant to be "refined". There is biblical support for that, as you know.
And yes, there seems to be biblical support for all three beliefs (UR, ET, AN) depending on how you interpret the scriptures and which ones you ignore. So who's right? I don't think anyone of us can claim to have 100% truth but we can certainly stick to our guns in what we believe the scriptures to be saying.
I believe God would have us use our common sense as well, and my common sense tells me that an all loving Creator will not and could not burn his creation for all of eternity. There is biblical support to prove that HE indeed WILL NOT do that. It is the "old man" who is being destroyed, it is the "flesh", not the spirit that will be destroyed. None of us knows exactly what is going to happen but my heart tells me it's not ET. And since the Word of God is written in our hearts as well, I choose to listen to what God is telling me through my heart.
I just don't appreciate being told that UR is "of the devil" and that it is sending people straight to hell because they fell no urgency to get saved. Well.....they're not going to feel an urgency to do anything unless God desires it anyway, and what He desires He gets. The need for Jesus Christ has never been stronger than it is right now and we still need to be spreading the gospel like the Bible says but we also know that not everyone is going to accept Jesus in this lifetime, according to the same Bible. So what do we do? We do what we're told and that's to speak and live Jesus Christ, and we let God handle the rest. It's all under His control anyway. No need for people to do anything but LOVE, like Jesus did.
If we truly knew the role that evil plays in our lives, we would thank God for it. Everything bad that comes to us, we either rebuke it and stand against it - as carnal a display as there ever was; or humble ourselves and ask that not our will but His be done...
...like Christ.
That's dying to the flesh, and we waste so many opportunities to lay aside what we want in favor of what the Lord is doing in us. Learning patience and longsuffering through the trials He brings to us is priceless.
That's true, but it's also something else. It's a "partial" truth or "skewed truth" which actually is very prevalent in the UR arguments. True, Jesus does not condemn but rejection and unbelief DOES condemn.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:17-18
Hey Alpha, good to see you. But.....what does "condemned" really mean here? What is condemned? It doesn't speak about ET AT ALL, as a matter of fact one could determine from reading this scripture that this is simply speaking of the "flesh" or the "old man" that is being destroyed. Nowhere does it say it's for all of eternity.
[quote=Driftwood2011;18295012
I don't think posters on these sites ought to get too worked up about how things will turn out. All of you have been wrong in something you believed in the past, at some time, so don't be so self assured about what you think you know now. Confident sure, but not speaking as having authority in say so.
We are not the judge or final say in the matter. We have a hope, based on knowledge; God will certainly do the right thing.
The silly differences on here are just that, with a sprinkling of fact mixed in.[/quote]
This is how I feel about the "we vs them" threads in this forum..None of us are right, but all of us have the most important piece of the Good News written in our hearts and that is Christ..I see His light from many posters here regardless of what other doctrines they have come to believe about reward or punishment or total annihilation in the next life.
This life was designed for us to walk in the ways of our savior, have compassion on the less fortunate and to love others as Christ taught us to..
Christ told His desciples he was going to prepare a place for them and that our minds could not conceive of the things He has prepared for us. For myself I trust the afterlife to Him and His judgements and this life to know Him as my friend and savior.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 03-17-2011 at 10:32 AM..
UR theology is the enemy of unbelievers ...it gives them false hope.
The UR'ist makes "their living" [so to speak] by arguing over words. They apparently find great satisfaction if they wake up to trap Jesus in his word using their box of what is fair.
I'm sure it's not as you suggest. Perhaps, Galatians 1:8-9 will more clearly explain my post.
I knew what you meant - love you anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue
This is how I feel about the "we vs them" threads in this forum..None of us are right, but all of us have the most important piece of the Good News written in our hearts and that is Christ..I see His light from many posters here regardless of what other doctrines they have come to believe about reward or punishment or total annihilation in the next life.
This life was designed for us to walk in the ways of our savior, have compassion on the less fortunate and to love others as Christ taught us to..
Christ told His desciples he was going to prepare a place for them and that our minds could not conceive of the things He has prepared for us. For myself I trust the afterlife to Him and His judgements and this life to know Him as my friend and savior.
That's how I feel about it too; it's tiring on the surface, but deeper we see the division is simply not necessary to those who look to Christ as their Savior.
Of course, that in itself varies more than I ever thought it could. How much do we really trust Him - some not enough (overstressing the law, old sabbath observation(s) instead of resting in Him, depending on works of the flesh); and then there's the scary side - the creeping in of unitarian doctrines into the camp, as dependence on the work of Christ has been replaced by apathy and "it'll end up as it's supposed to".
We need Him like the deer pants after the water - that's the attitude of those who really want to be what He's created man to be - vessels, tabernacles, a people called out.
He will have that people, and they'll bring the Light of the world to the world - but will I be giving it with them, or receiving it from them?
UR theology is the enemy of unbelievers ...it gives them false hope.
The UR'ist makes "their living" [so to speak] by arguing over words. They apparently find great satisfaction if they wake up to trap Jesus in his word using their box of what is fair.
No, it is NOT the enemy of unbelievers TS, you really need to read the posts here and pay attention. The enemy of unbelievers is Satan himself and the fact that some don't believe in Satan has no bearing on the fact that he's hard at work. I think most Christian Universalists believe there is a dark energy at work in the world, and Jesus Christ is our only hope and our only salvation.
Our job as Christians is to spread the gospel and live it. You seem to be focused on UR and bringing it down when there are real threats out there that need to be dealt with. How about the rampant presence of evil and voodoo in Haiti? Are those people not worth your attention? They need Christ now more than ever and so do the people in Japan. Now is the time to focus on what you can do to further the message of Christ, not to zero in and focus on something you happen to disagree with, yet has biblical support. Where are your priorities?
Our key difference is in whether or not people have any choice or accountability for responding to Jesus Christ in accordance with God's plan; which, by grace alone, results in rebirth and eternal life with God.
The danger and enemy (Satan) gets between people and God's plan in Jesus Christ! While UR is certainly not Satan, it does create a false sense of security in the minds of those who, by your own admission, have "equal Bible-based support for ET or anihlation (your phrase, not mine --- my problem is that the phrase is kind of like 'pro-death' -- How about "pro-grace" or "pro-literal interpretation of the Bible').
While we can agree to disagree on many theological points, there are certain irreducible truths that make ALL the difference in this world and the next. One of those is the essential need to exercise our free-will choice to repent of sin and turn to Jesus Christ for Salvation and Life.
What I do not understand is why the UR folks are so anxious to block people from even considering the possibility of what even they recognize as having 'equal Bible-based support' (In your words, ET and anihlation).
Knowing God loves us is wonderful and comforting, but, according to most of the NT, that is NOT the path to eternal salvation and life. And even the UR folks would have to acknowledge that, by their own philosophy, this principle has no bearing one way or the other, on one's eternal life with God(?). The 'guilt and anguish' used by some to characterize Christians, simply isn't there! -- Christians are the one's who are "free indeed."
Hey jghorton It seems here you are saying that UR creates a false sense of security. You could not be more wrong. Those of us that understand UR know that being saved is the hardest thing any human will go through in his or her entire life. It will take all your life (and sometimes beyond), and everything you've got and even then it will be all of God and not of you, Seems to contradict itself but it really does'nt. Everything is from God, your life, your strength, your faith, your salvation, and the grace he extends to us.
The false sense of security is from those who say that if you accept Jesus and say a ten second sinners prayer you are saved, and can go on your merry little way. Yes you must accept Jesus (also a gift from God because the carnal heart hates Jesus, and will not seek him out), but you also must be judged and put through the "refining fire" and face your sins,reap what you have sown and repent and be cleansed. Christ's elect will do that in this life, (by the grace of God, not of themselves), and they will rule with Him in the Kingdom of God, and will judge the rest of mankind and the angels themselves.
God is creating us in his image and when he is finished we will all be like our Father.
Hey jghorton It seems here you are saying that UR creates a false sense of security. You could not be more wrong. Those of us that understand UR know that being saved is the hardest thing any human will go through in his or her entire life. It will take all your life (and sometimes beyond), and everything you've got and even then it will be all of God and not of you, Seems to contradict itself but it really does'nt. Everything is from God, your life, your strength, your faith, your salvation, and the grace he extends to us.
The false sense of security is from those who say that if you accept Jesus and say a ten second sinners prayer you are saved, and can go on your merry little way. Yes you must accept Jesus (also a gift from God because the carnal heart hates Jesus, and will not seek him out), but you also must be judged and put through the "refining fire" and face your sins,reap what you have sown and repent and be cleansed. Christ's elect will do that in this life, (by the grace of God, not of themselves), and they will rule with Him in the Kingdom of God, and will judge the rest of mankind and the angels themselves.
God is creating us in his image and when he is finished we will all be like our Father.
Well I just heard it from one of the horse's mouths......UR does not give a false sense of security.....if they don't believe, then they just don't believe. It's about Jesus Christ, not about what happens in the afterlife. You can't force anyone to accept Jesus like you said, there's nothing we can do to "force" someone to believe. It is by the grace of God and His choice that we are saved. We are the elect, those who have chosen Jesus in this life. But that does not discount everyone else. ALL means ALL.
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But.....what does "condemned" really mean here? What is condemned? It doesn't speak about ET AT ALL, as a matter of fact one could determine from reading this scripture that this is simply speaking of the "flesh" or the "old man" that is being destroyed. Nowhere does it say it's for all of eternity.
How much do we really trust Him - some not enough (overstressing the law, old sabbath observation(s) instead of resting in Him, depending on works of the flesh); and then there's the scary side - the creeping in of unitarian doctrines into the camp, as dependence on the work of Christ has been replaced by apathy and "it'll end up as it's supposed to". 