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"it shall not be forgiven him" means exactly what it says, and NOT means NEVER. It is rather simple. Where is the exception clause to the NOT?
The meaning of the 'next world' is obvious, but clearly you refuse to see it. The Bible does not talk about forgiveness in the 4th age, so it is purely something you added to the Bible, and not scriptural. I am glad this was brought up, because it is a classic example of people twisting simple verses into something that is simply not there.
It you bought into the translation you are tying to sell me, when it is as clear as crystal, then it does not surprise me you also bought into the UR teachings.
If I say this water is NOT Hot, then by your statement it would mean that the water can NEVER be Hot. If you still can't understand this rationally then I will not debate it with you because it will mean your heart is just not given to this skill yet.
If I say this water is NOT Hot, then by your statement it would mean that the water can NEVER be Hot. If you still can't understand this rationally then I will not debate it with you because it will mean your heart is just not given to this skill yet.
This isn't a philosophy forum, this is a Christianity Forum, and in this forum, we talk about things that are in the scriptures. Not the above.
Your premise is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
No the last one would be the Ages of the Ages. The age to come is the age in which Christ shall rule.
Which is for ever and ever.
I also want to point out to you, that in 1 Corinthians 15, the "kingdom" given to the Father is NOT the rule of Christ, but when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, and the last enemy is death.
He reigns for ever and ever.
If you think otherwise, you are truly misguided.
I also want to point out to you, that in 1 Corinthians 15, the "kingdom" given to the Father is NOT the rule of Christ, but when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, and the last enemy is death.
He reigns for ever and ever.
If you think otherwise, you are truly misguided.
No, Christ will not RULE for ever, because he will give up his reign to the father, so that god can be all in all. There will be no more government or rule or authority, we will be one with god even as Christ is one with God. There will be no more need for government or rule.
1Cr 15:24
then -- the end, when he(Christ) may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Christ will rule UNTIL he has subjected all things to himself. Then he will DELIVER UP HIS RULE to the father, so that God can be all in all ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-16-2010 at 10:27 PM..
We want first of all to set forth the Biblical view of the age to come. I want to make three points that are critical.
The Jews only believed in two ages.
They believed in what they called “this age” and “the age to come.”
The Jews believed that this age was the age of Moses and the Law, and was, the time when Israel awaited the fulfillment of her prophetic hope. The Jews believed that the age to come would be the age of Messiah and the New Covenant. (cross ref. Hebrews 2:1-5).
The Jews believed that this age would end, but the age of the Messiah, the age to come, would never end (Isaiah 9:6-9; Luke 1:32-33; Ephesians 3:20-21).
Jesus definitely taught the existence of only two ages, and he used the terms this age and the age to come. He knew he was living in this age, and was anticipating the age to come. Jesus definitely viewed this age as the age of Moses and the Law. He was sent to establish the promises made to the fathers of Israel (Romans 15:6). Jesus was, “born of a woman, made under the Law” (Galatians 4:4). Also, Jesus was very much aware of living under the age of Moses and the Law. He said he did not come to destroy it, but to fulfill it, and said it all, not part, not some, or not even most of it, but all of it, had to be fulfilled before it could pass (Matthew 5:17-18).
Jesus demonstrated the presence of this age, when the Mosaic mandates were still valid and binding, in his discussion with the Sadducees about resurrection. They appealed to the Levirate Marriage law of Deuteronomy, and Jesus concurred with its validity. However, he also anticipated the arrival of the age to come time when “they neither marry nor are given in marriage” (Luke 20:35). This is not a description of the end of human relationships, as some mistakenly claim. It is a contrast between the Mosaic Age, founded, identified, and sustained by “marrying and giving in marriage,” and the age to come, when members of the kingdom are determined, not by physical lineage, but by spiritual birth. Members of the kingdom today are not the result of marrying and giving in marriage. They are the result of being taught, and then being born into the kingdom (Hebrews 8:6). The point is that for Jesus, this age was indeed the age of Moses and the Law, and the age to come was the age when Moses and the Law would no longer be binding.
The disciples associated the desolation of that edifice with the end of the age (sunteliea ton aionion) and asked for a sign, “of the end of the age.”
The disciples did associate the end of the age with the destruction of the Temple that was standing when they asked the question, and the disciples, who were questioning Jesus on the Mount of Olives, linked Christ’s words of judgment about the destruction of the present Temple with the invasion of Jerusalem that was predicted by Zechariah 14. Daniel 12 proves that the end of the age is tied inseparably to the destruction of Israel. The disciples were not confused, nor were they ignorant therefore, when they connected Jesus’ prediction of the Temple’s demise to the end of the age. They were asking a perfectly legitimate and logical question based on their knowledge of the prophetic scriptures. In Matthew 13, Jesus used the identical distinctive term for the end of the age that the disciples used in Matthew 24:3 (suntelia tou aionos). In verse43, Jesus said that at the end his “this age,” “the righteous shall shine forth,” a direct quote of Daniel 12:3.
Daniel predicted the end of the age, when Israel’s promises would be fulfilled. He said the end of the age, that would be the end of his this age, would be “when the power of the holy people was completely shattered” (Daniel 12:4-7). Jesus, in Matthew 13, told a parable about the end of his this age, and said it would occur when the Daniel 12 was fulfilled! In other words, Daniel predicted that Israel’s this age would end with the judgment on Israel!
Please provide your evidence that Israel in the time of Christ and before believed in only two ages?
My study of Ma'aseh Merkabah and Ma'aseh bereshi_t contradict your claim that such is the case.
If I say this water is NOT Hot, then by your statement it would mean that the water can NEVER be Hot. If you still can't understand this rationally then I will not debate it with you because it will mean your heart is just not given to this skill yet.
You forgot the word "will". Jesus is talking about the future, when he says "will not be forgiven". If Jesus said this water will not be hot, not in this world, or the next world, then that would mean the water will never be hot.
Then don't debate it. To be honest with you, this was a losing game for you from the get go, so I am surprised you stayed on this long.
This isn't a philosophy forum, this is a Christianity Forum, and in this forum, we talk about things that are in the scriptures. Not the above.
Your premise is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
No it is very relevant. I just showed that the verses applied to refute universalism were misunderstood by those attempting to use those verses for such a case.
I also want to point out to you, that in 1 Corinthians 15, the "kingdom" given to the Father is NOT the rule of Christ, but when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, and the last enemy is death.
He reigns for ever and ever.
If you think otherwise, you are truly misguided.
The Kingdom Given over to the Father is when all rule and all authority and power and death is destroyed (which is destroyed by the giving of life) has been accomplished. At that point, even the rule will be placed in the hearts of all and all shall be the children of God.
You forgot the word "will". Jesus is talking about the future, when he says "will not be forgiven". If Jesus said this water will not be hot, not in this world, or the next world, then that would mean the water will never be hot.
Then don't debate it. To be honest with you, this was a losing game for you from the get go, so I am surprised you stayed on this long.
Yes, it is in the future but not the entire future. I'm not playing a game. I take the Word of God seriously, and I already know that God is going to bring everyone to this understanding in due time through the works of people like me and others.
No it is very relevant. I just showed that the verses applied to refute universalism were misunderstood by those attempting to use those verses for such a case.
LOL, I can't speak for others but I wasn't trying to refute UR, but now that you mention it, I understand why you'd go to no end to come up with creative translations trying to explain it away. It actually creates a dilemma for UR. LOL.
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