Population dropoff (Chicago, Naperville, Joliet: house, buy, subdivision)

[MassVt]

Originally Posted by Drover

I don't suppose my current neighborhood is "super-dense" by Chicago standards but it's still 18,000 ppsm. I suspect I'll be hard-pressed to find that in KC, or pretty much anywhere west of Cicero Avenue until I hit San Francisco. It's not so much the density that I mind giving up so much as the implicit benefits that come with it such as numerous amenities within easy walking distance and the option to use public transportation to get around when I don't feel like driving (or when I'm in no condition to drive...) I love cars and I'll always have at least one if not multiple cars no matter how unnecessary car ownership may be in any given neighborhood I live in. but I've grown uncomfortable with the idea of being a slave to one.

Hard to imagine a Drover-less Chicago, but nothing wrong in making comparisons; are you considering St. Louis, too?

Methinks that KC would not be for you ( no subway, etc), but who knows?

[aragx6]

Totally see where you're coming from -- many of the same issues I struggled with myself! The buses in KC are clean and safe, but run far more infrequently than I was used to, though I will say the cabs have to be nicer than any I've ever seen

And I do like St. Louis loads better to MassVT's point.

[emathias]

The median family income in the U.S. right now is about $50k/year. 30% of that is $15k/year. At 4% $1,250/month lets you mortgage about $260,000. If you've been a good saver and have 20% down, that's a $325,000 home you can buy with just the median family income and moderately aggressive debt ratio. A more conservative purchase price might be $275,000.

People who, as a family, earn $50k/year are not usually professionals.

Granted, you're not going to get the nice new home on a big lot in a prime area for that price, but if home ownership is what you want, it is definitely within reach for a median family in the Chicago area at those prices, especially if you are okay with a condo but even looking only at houses people have some options at that price range.

Life anywhere is about balancing the benefits and sacrifices to meet your personal preferences. In a lower-priced area maybe you don't need to work as many hours. Maybe you can buy a house without saving as much down payment first. Maybe you have fewer temptations to spend money instead of saving it. But maybe the opportunity to buy a home that may appreciate significantly even in a down economy just won't exist. Maybe jobs that pay a lot won't exist. Maybe exposure to a wide variety of different cultures will be limited. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of those differences, it's just a matter of personal preference - what balance of personal sacrifice in opportunity and effort people are willing to make in exchange for what usually can be summarized as wider selection. Not everyone needs that. People who make their home in Chicago like the balance between cost and selection and opportunity here. People who want more selection and opportunity go spend more money in New York or San Francisco (or London or Tokyo). People who don't need as much and want to save some coin move to St. Louis or Kansas City (or Little Rock or Charlotte). Most cities are somewhere on the continuum, and not anchoring the highest or lowest ends of cost and opportunity. I love Chicago and hate to see people leave, but I also know that the main reason I'm not interested in moving to New York is that I don't think the extra benefits outweigh the extra costs - i'd be a hypocrite for faulting someone who made the same determination when comparing Chicago and, for example, Kansas City.

[MassVt]

I suppose that people will consider Kansas City, St. Louis, Minneapolis, etc( not sure about Indianapolis and Milwaukee, although I like Milwaukee ), but the line gets drawn when considering such places as Rockford, Peoria and Kenosha??

As one wag once put it: "Few kids running away to sea head for Toledo".

[Aleking]

Originally Posted by emathias

The median family income in the U.S. right now is about $50k/year. 30% of that is $15k/year. At 4% $1,250/month lets you mortgage about $260,000. If you've been a good saver and have 20% down, that's a $325,000 home you can buy with just the median family income and moderately aggressive debt ratio. A more conservative purchase price might be $275,000.

People who, as a family, earn $50k/year are not usually professionals.

Granted, you're not going to get the nice new home on a big lot in a prime area for that price, but if home ownership is what you want, it is definitely within reach for a median family in the Chicago area at those prices, especially if you are okay with a condo but even looking only at houses people have some options at that price range.

We are at nearly twice the median and took on a mortgage of only 120k...and I can't imagine spending more, it defeat the whole purpose of living in and enjoying what the city has to offer.

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by aragx6

Totally see where you're coming from -- many of the same issues I struggled with myself! The buses in KC are clean and safe, but run far more infrequently than I was used to, though I will say the cabs have to be nicer than any I've ever seen

And I do like St. Louis loads better to MassVT's point.

I prefer St. Louis to KC too, but there has still been a huge adjustment for us. I was down in STL for school and that was my first more or less "urban" living experience. It seemed more bustling at the time than it does in hindsight after living in bigger places.

I overestimated the walkability and street life. Granted, we live in Benton Park and not CWE, the Loop or along Wash Ave, but sitting outside at 9pm and drinking a beer while not hearing a soul on the sidewalks 20 feet away was a bit disconcerting at first. It's still a great place and we wouldn't have changed our decision even if we knew what we do now. I've just got to get over my paranoia when I walk 2 blocks back from a bar at midnight on a very quiet street.

[aragx6]

^Benton Park is definitely an area we'd consider (maybe more so for a 4-plex which we intend to buy, live in for a short time and rent out than a place we plan to stay more than 2 years), but not at the top for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Then again, a decade ago just about no professional would have considered living there, so I'll call that progress and be pleased.

I have a friend that lives Juniata just a block west of Grand in Tower Grove South though and it's honestly hopping there just about all the time (I'd imagine weeknights are quiet tho!) And being so near the park isn't too shabby either -- CWE is wonderful, but housing is so grand and thus expensive there as to make our argument about home ownership pretty moot.

KC has been a big adjustment too, but like you, I'm still convinced it was the right call!

[Chicago76]

^ Off topic, but I like TGS along Grand too, but it gets quiet when you're a half block off Grand too. We're torn between BP, CWE, TGS, U-City or doing the Clayton/Webster/Kirkwood thing for schools for our daughter. BP would surprise you now I think. There is a small army of young kids now and a 4-plex is just about impossible to find. The only way to get one would be to take a vacant corner building and build it out yourself, but I'd say 95% percent of those old rowhomes w/ 4 units (2 front/2back) have been converted to single family or 2 condo units. The easiest places to get your hands on for investment potential are those 900 sq ft shotguns that no one can figure out what to do w/

[aragx6]

Actually there are a couple in BP on the market right now like this one: 2000 Wyoming St Saint Louis MO - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - MLS #11054406 - Realtor.com®

But if I were buying today there's one I'm just in love with in TGS: 3849 Juniata St Saint Louis MO - Home For Sale and Real Estate Listing - MLS #11057027 - Realtor.com®

Make sure you look long and hard at Skinker-Debaliviere if you'd like to be near the loop -- I really dig that 'hood for its proximity to the loop and metro; though it is quiet in and of itself.

Honestly my place on Winchester in Wicker Park was only a few houses up the block but was silent too -- I like that though, in the thick of it all but not at the same time.

[MannheimMadman]

Originally Posted by MassVt

I suppose that people will consider Kansas City, St. Louis, Minneapolis, etc( not sure about Indianapolis and Milwaukee, although I like Milwaukee ), but the line gets drawn when considering such places as Rockford, Peoria and Kenosha??

As one wag once put it: "Few kids running away to sea head for Toledo".

That's where I'd draw the line, at least. But you'd be surprised how many people would do anything to own a house. I mean, look at the Chicago metropolitan area...why the hell would any buy a house in Plano, Oswego, or somewhere like that?

And for the record, of those three, Kenosha is probably the most charming ...thought that doesn't say much.