Does this outrage you? (Chicago, Humboldt: buy, town, American)

[Humboldt1]

Eevee,

Have you ever spent time with people from the projects outside of an urban sociology class or charity work?

Perhaps you have but many have not. It is easy to be liberal in college or when you live in lincoln park and feel bad for poor people without actually having to live around them. Come stay with me in Humboldt Park for awhile and drive thru Garfield Park on a clear summer night and you will understand.

I have lived around people who grew up in the projects for the last couple of years. It ain't Good Times.

It is very common to have multiple fathers in this culture. It is also mostly a fatherless culture with many of the men in jail.

I believe Leniel was over generalizing as it is possible this mother had 8 kids with the same guy. They might even be married. I doubt this, though.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Have you ever spent time with people from the projects outside of an urban sociology class or charity work?

I should think it is through charity work that one could come to understand the plight of the less fortunate the best.

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by eevee

I'm FAR more outraged that kids are killing other kids on school grounds for a dumb hat; I'm FAR more outraged that this school has as much security around it as some minimum security prisons; I'm FAR more outraged that kids are terrified of gang retaliation and so are skipping school; I'm FAR more outraged that almost 2 dozen students have been killed this year (this averages out to MORE than 1 a WEEK!); I'm FAR more OUTRAGED that, instead of providing helpful insight on how to keep this from happening again, idiots instead create dumb threads only to mount character attacks against disadvantaged people and make sweeping assumptions

Well, let step backwards from your points...Why do you think this happens in the projects and not Lake Forest? Why do you think the vast majority of those involved are black (or hispanic)?
The liberal response is that it's society's fault for not PROVIDING jobs and opportunities, for not PROVIDING a living wage, for not PROVIDING better schools and education.
Again, I ask, when and where does the responsibility fall on the individual? When someone living in the projects has 8 kids, that's simply irresponsible. When those kids don't have a father figure, receive no discipline, etc, it usually leads to bad outcomes.

[eevee]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Eevee,

Have you ever spent time with people from the projects outside of an urban sociology class or charity work?

actually, I have lived in a housing development projects, though my family didn't have Sec. 8 (too much pride). don't get me wrong, the projects in Boston are nothing compared to those of Chicago's, but I've known my fair share of poverty and gang violence

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Perhaps you have but many have not. It is easy to be liberal in college or when you live in lincoln park and feel bad for poor people without actually having to live around them. Come stay with me in Humboldt Park for awhile and drive thru Garfield Park on a clear summer night and you will understand..

I'm already IN Humboldt Park in fact, you and I aren't that far apart I believe (I'm near Keeler and Division). but yes, I do understand what you're trying to say

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

I have lived around people who grew up in the projects for the last couple of years. It ain't Good Times.

It is very common to have multiple fathers in this culture. It is also mostly a fatherless culture with many of the men in jail..

I know it's common, that's not my issue w/ the OP. my issue is that, the OP looks at this tragedy and automatically starts blasting off w/ the same tired "black women on welfare have 10 different babies by 10 different fathers to abuse the system" BS. it seems like whenever a poor black kid from the projects does something bad, people are quick to point out this "fact" (which, while it does happen often, shouldn't just automatically be assumed to be the case).

I get the fact no one likes anyone on welfare, esp. black women on welfare. it's easy to dislike the ones who abuse the system, but not all of these women do so. I feel a lot more sympathy for black women on welfare than many here it seems (there's already another recent thread about public housing and welfare.)

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

I believe Leniel was over generalizing as it is possible this mother had 8 kids with the same guy. They might even be married. I doubt this, though.

WHY does this matter though? why is the marital status of these mothers necessary to know to understand why this event happened? lots of kids grow up w/o a father, lots of kids grow up in the projects, not all of these kids are killing each other.

IDK, everyone is different; I see this tragedy and wonder how to keep these schools safer for students; some people look at this tragedy as a way to blast welfare mothers they don't know. I'm more concerned about the rate of violence in these schools, not some lady's marital status. from the original post, the OP seems less concerned w/ the fact this kid is dead and more concerned w/ why his mother had X number of kids

and lenneil, there are entire threads/websites/books devoted to the question of why crime happens more in poor, predominantly black/hispanic neighborhoods. I'm not blind to the reasons why. if this is the issue you want to discuss, bring it in a way where you're not making assumptions about people and condemning them from afar. It's easy to look at a black on welfare and make judgements about her, a kick a belittle a person while they're down (and mourning thier dead kid).

[UnderTheLiveOaks]

Originally Posted by lenniel

Well, let step backwards from your points...Why do you think this happens in the projects and not Lake Forest? Why do you think the vast majority of those involved are black (or hispanic)?
The liberal response is that it's society's fault for not PROVIDING jobs and opportunities, for not PROVIDING a living wage, for not PROVIDING better schools and education.
Again, I ask, when and where does the responsibility fall on the individual? When someone living in the projects has 8 kids, that's simply irresponsible. When those kids don't have a father figure, receive no discipline, etc, it usually leads to bad outcomes.

I'm not sure if this will go anywhere, but I'll ask everyone what's wrong with combining personal responsibility AND the social contract? Why can't we say that more personal responsibility is totally necessary, but that we, as a society, are also responsible for making sure that there is something of a safety net and level playing field for all our citizens.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by eevee

WHY does this matter though? why is the marital status of these mothers necessary to know to understand why this event happened? lots of kids grow up w/o a father, lots of kids grow up in the projects, not all of these kids are killing each other.

No, but they are far more likely to do so than those who grow up in intact homes. That's why it matters. The marital status of a male child's household is the single greatest predictive factor of whether or not that child will engage in criminal activity and how frequently, more so than race or poverty. Though on the latter point, the surest way for a family to get and stay out of poverty is for the parents to get married and stay married and maintain steady employment. Unfortunately, our welfare system is structured so that it basically pays the family to have no dad in the house. So -- surprise! -- Dad goes away.

The resultant destruction of the black family has been devastating to American society in general and the black community in particular. There were social scientists who predicted this outcome when the Great Society was being debated, and their concerns were echoed by some prominent politicians such as Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Unfortunately, their warnings were not heeded, and indeed even today we witness the trivialization of the institution of marriage. We do so at our own peril.

[Humboldt1]

Eevee,

You and I may see things slightly different but I respect the way you present yourself. I will gladly buy you a beer at California Clipper.

Where exactly is K-town? I know keeler is part of it but I believe it is way south of division. Perhaps not. Please let me know.

[aragx6]

This has gone far beyond the scope of the original question and it's now downright political... that's really not what this forum is for, and its really no longer helpful or informative for anyone.

I vote for it to be closed.

[Costa Rica Chica]

Originally Posted by PAKennedy

As dumb of a generalization as it was, being Liberal doesn't necessitate a political affiliation.

True, I guess I meant a sweeping generalization about liberals. Although I don't know too many liberal Republicans, do you?

[drummercycle]

yeah k town is south of the expressway in lawndale