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Anywho....I actually liked Park Forest when I drove through. I'm a sucker for ranch homes, and I saw a diverse bunch of kids riding bikes. The home prices were reasonable, and the people I know that stay that way love it! I just don't like depending on Metra to get to Chicago everyday, and I refuse to drive. The wooded area I especially liked!
I live in Steger and I'm still getting use to living around so many whites and sending my children to school with the majority in the school being white. I grew up in the pill hill area in chicago and all I saw were professional black families working , mom and dads in the home, only a few single moms or at least a step dad. I don't blame changes on different races moving in, more like peoples morals and how kids are being raised across all races. No one cares anymore, lots of me me me, from parents and letting the child do and say anything. We are not taking responsibility for our own families and doing what it takes to raise good citizens. Stop looking at each other because you think something about a perticular race, so that makes it so about everyone. Also being a nurse seeing all races of kids abused, please don't think that only blacks prostatute their kids or do drugs, that comes in all races also, even in different countries. Stop watching boys in the hood movies and precious movies.
I've heard that now that very far south Chicagoland (Monee, Crete, Manhattan, etc.) are losing their appeal because the neighborhoods are "turning." Is this true at all?
When will people realize that when black people move into the neighborhood, the neighborhood is no longer valuable? It has neither to do with the schools nor anything to do with crime--at least not in the beginning. It's normally based off of about race.
The first wave of AA's moving into any white community tipically has more money than the whites in the community. However, some whites couldn't take one black family moving in to their commmunity, so they bounced. The ones who couldn't sell their homes simply took their kids out of the schools and sent them to private schools.
Once the real estate agents and banks caught wind of this, they started maketing these areas to other black middle-class families and scaring the live $#!T out of the white families. Because AA families were more despert to move into the burbs, they brought these homes for much more than they were worth. With that said, White families made a killing selling their home, which probably enabled many families to buy better and more valuable homes in the Western burbs, SW burbs and NWI.
As more Whites moved away, more AA's would moved in. Many AA's didn't realized that, the more AA's move in the commmunity, the lower the property value getsl. Since most whites have abandoned the area, other white families refused to move their at all. If middle/upper middle-class White families don't want to move into the neighborhood, then the neighborhood is as good as dead for most real estate agencies, banks and investors, despite the fact that the majority of blacks are good, law abiding, middle-class residents.
Therefore, as the property value declines, the more people with lower incomes are able to afford to buy a home or rent in the area. When that happens, the area draws a wave of low-income people along with section 8 folks.
This is normally the breaking point for most of these community because
what completely follows this major shift is an increase in crime and drastic decline in the school system. Many communities have avoided the worst, but for some communities the decline is inevitable.
I think I will end here for now and let you all comment.
When will people realize that when black people move into the neighborhood, the neighborhood is no longer valuable? It has neither to do with the schools nor anything to do with crime--at least not in the beginning. It's normally based off of about race.
The first wave of AA's moving into any white community tipically has more money than the whites in the community. However, some whites couldn't take one black family moving in to their commmunity, so they bounced. The ones who couldn't sell their homes simply took their kids out of the schools and sent them to private schools.
Once the real estate agents and banks caught wind of this, they started maketing these areas to other black middle-class families and scaring the live $#!T out of the white families. Because AA families were more despert to move into the burbs, they brought these homes for much more than they were worth. With that said, White families made a killing selling their home, which probably enabled many families to buy better and more valuable homes in the Western burbs, SW burbs and NWI.
As more Whites moved away, more AA's would moved in. Many AA's didn't realized that, the more AA's move in the commmunity, the lower the property value getsl. Since most whites have abandoned the area, other white families refused to move their at all. If middle/upper middle-class White families don't want to move into the neighborhood, then the neighborhood is as good as dead for most real estate agencies, banks and investors, despite the fact that the majority of blacks are good, law abiding, middle-class residents.
Therefore, as the property value declines, the more people with lower incomes are able to afford to buy a home or rent in the area. When that happens, the area draws a wave of low-income people along with section 8 folks.
This is normally the breaking point for most of these community because
what completely follows this major shift is an increase in crime and drastic decline in the school system. Many communities have avoided the worst, but for some communities the decline is inevitable.
I think I will end here for now and let you all comment.
Sadly, I have to agree. And this is coming from a minority! But I would like to add that while the whole "scare" is initially based upon race, in the end, it boils down to class. The majority (by percentage) of lower-income folks are African-Americans. It is known that the majority of violent crime, petty crime, lower school scores are largely contained within a lower-income population. Now mix all this together and what do often you "see"? A low-income African-American. The fact that the majority (by percentage) of lower-income individuals are black just makes them more identifiable. That is why when someone sees a black person, they usually equate them to lower-income. It is sad really.
The reason I put "see" in quotation marks is because people usually only notice the more negative aspects of a specific group (that is usually magnified by the media). This is why when a black person moves into a neighborhood, many white people freak out because they "see" nothing but trouble instead of perhaps seeing a possible great new neighbor.
It is often the first wave of upper-income, higher educated blacks that move in that have to deal with issues that the second, typically lower-class, lower-income wave brings in from the inner-city. Most of the whites have already left by this point.
Finally, I just want to make it known that this is just my analysis of everything. I am not trying to promote any racism or classism or the like in any way.
I can't remember if redlining has been discussed in this thread, but one of the above posts touches upon it a bit. It's an interesting concept and conundrum.
When will people realize that when black people move into the neighborhood, the neighborhood is no longer valuable?
I have to totally disagree with that statement. That scenario is so outdated. What recent example of this is there? Value when it comes to housing or any other asset is driven by the financial class of people who are attracted to it and how much they are willing to pay to aquire it. It's as simple as that. Areas go up and down in value based on the economic income of the residents not solely on there race. I would say as a whole that the working class and middle class is shrinking and the number of poor are growing. So you're seeing areas that were once working class like Harvey are now poor. The steel mills and factories are long gone in areas like that man. My grandfather used to work at harris hub steel plant up until it closed in the 80's and earned like 25k a year. Very good salary for back then especially for a man who was born in the south and didn't go to college and maybe not even highschool. My grandmother earned a good salary also. They own a house in markham and bought it when it was brand new in the 1961. That class of people is now almost extinct. They still live on a decent block but the steel mills are gone and so are most of the factory jobs that help to build areas like Harvey, Markham, Dolton, Calumet City, burnham, Ford Heights, etc. Those areas tend to have smaller ranch style homes, or smaller frame split levels, and city style bungalows. The housing stock in these areas was built for the working class that is now almost extinct. Middle class and affluent blacks typically have the same standard for high quality housing and dmost o not consider living in those areas as a good option for housing. Plenty of examples of middle class and affluent areas with sizeable black populations in chicagoland. Oak park, Evanston, flossmoor, olympia fields, matteson, homewood, country club hills, hazel crest, bolingbrook, south holland, lansing, richton park, kenwood, bronzeville, Hyde park, Jackson park highlands, Beverly, etc.
Areas all around chicago that were once working class and have modest housing are now being used for low income housing. That is a fact that has more to do with current economics than anything. Middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods tend to stay that way regardless of the race of the people moving in who obviously can afford to move in and pay for the home and higher property taxes. Where is there an example of the not being true in recent history? Anyone care to name any neighborhoods were this isn't the case?
Last edited by allen2323; 08-11-2010 at 12:32 PM..
I have to totally disagree with that statement. That scenario is so outdated. What recent example of this is there? Value when it comes to housing or any other asset is driven by the financial class of people who are attracted to it and how much they are willing to pay to aquire it. It's as simple as that. Areas go up and down in value based on the economic income of the residents not solely on there race. I would say as a whole that the working class and middle class is shrinking and the number of poor are growing. So you're seeing areas that were once working class like Harvey are now poor. The steel mills and factories are long gone in areas like that man. My grandfather used to work at harris hub steel plant up until it closed in the 80's and earned like 25k a year. Very good salary for back then especially for a man who was born in the south and didn't go to college and maybe not even highschool. My grandmother earned a good salary also. They own a house in markham and bought it when it was brand new in the 1961. That class of people is now almost extinct. They still live on a decent block but the steel mills are gone and so are most of the factory jobs that help to build areas like Harvey, Markham, Dolton, Calumet City, etc.
Middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods tend to stay that way regardless of the race of the people moving in who obviously can afford to move in and pay for the home and higher property taxes. Where is there an example of the not being true in recent history?
I slightly agree with you. However, a change in the racial make up of the area will speed up the process.
Anyway, I'm primarily talking about middle/upper class burbs like CC Hills, South Holland, Matteson, Hazel Crest, Homewood, Flossmoor, Olympia Fields, etc. Not poor/working class burbs like Markham, Harvey, Dolton, Cal City, Riverdale, etc.
Majority of predominanty Black Middle class communities haven't seen a white family of the same stature move-in their communities in almost decades. I'm from CC Hills. Every white family that moved out, a black family moved in. I have yet to see a white family move in my neighborhood.
I'm not saying that the absence of white families is the blame for poverty in the black community, but the community's value does decrease tremendously. This has an long-term affect on property values, quality of schools and crime. Middle class white burbs are very attractive to investors, developers, retailers, companies as well as other middle-class families (White, Black, Hispanic, Asians, etc). Black Middle-class burbs aren't that attractive anyone, but to a portion of the black middle-class popluation who wants to live around other black people "like them". Unfortunately, when the black middle-class stop buying in black burbs due to this lack of...., they typically move to white burbs where theirs a lot more of.... In the mean time, black suburbs began to their loss their value, in which you suddenly began to see changes for the worse.
Perfect example is Chatham.
Last edited by suburban_boy; 08-11-2010 at 12:57 PM..
I slightly agree with you. However, I'm primarily talking about middle/upper class burbs like CC Hills, South Holland, Matteson, Hazel Crest, Homewood, Flossmoor, Olympia Fields, etc. Not poor/working class burbs like Markham, Harvey, Dolton, Cal City, Riverdale, etc.
Majority of predominanty Black Middle class communities having seen a white family of the same stature move-in in almost decades. I'm from CC Hills. Every white family that moved out, a black family moved in. I have yet to see a white family move in my neighborhood.
I'm not saying that the absence of white families is the blame for poverty in the black community, but the community's value does decrease tremendously. This also has an long-term affect on property values, quality of schools and crime. Middle class white burbs are very attractive to investors, developers, retailers, companies as well as other middle-class families (White, Black, Hispanic, Asians, etc). Black Middle-class burbs aren't that attractive to businesses and are only attractive to the portion of the black middle-class who wants to live around other black people "like them". Unfortunately, when the black middle-class stop buying in black burbs due to the lack of...., they typically move to white burbs where theirs a lot more of.... In the mean time, black suburbs began to their loss their value, in which you suddenly began to see changes for the worse.
Country club hills? Are you basing your opinion on year to year perceived progress? The fact is country club hills has alot more retail than it did say 10 years. A recent southtown article stated that country club hills retail property vacancy rate is less thant 2 percent which is on par with most of the WHITE burbs. http://www.southtownstar.com/news/2505036,071810bigboxes-web2.article (broken link) . Country Club Hills property tax base has also grown substantially in that time. New UPSCALE housing subdivisions with homes that sold new in the past 5-7 years in the 350k to 650k price range. What was there before that was so much better if you care to explain? I think price point wise middle class blacks see value in the area were maybe alot of middle class whites do not anymore. I don't think it matters so much what race the majority of people moving in or out are. Tinley park is right next door to country club hills and tinley park is 90 percent white. Although tinley park's most upscale subdivision the odyssey club has a sizeable black population. This has more to do with the far southern suburbs for various reasons being a major destination for middle class and affluent blacks. It will probably remain that way. It's not as simple as black and white anymore. What about flossmoor and Homewood? Large number of whites moving in there along with black professionals. What about Olympia fields? Mostly black but still plenty of whites. But, who cares with that kind of money in such an affluent small town, doctors, lawyers, well off old timers, professionals, some millionaires and what have you.
Last edited by allen2323; 08-11-2010 at 01:34 PM..
Country club hills? Are you basing your opinion on year to year perceived progress? The fact is country club hills has alot more retail than it did say 10 years. A recent southtown article stated that country club hills retail property vacancy rate is at 3 percent which is on par with most of the WHITE burbs. Country Club Hills property tax base has also grown substantially in that time. New UPSCALE housing subdivisions with homes that sold new in the past 5-7 years in the 350k to 650k price range. What was there before that was so much better if you care to explain? I think price point wise middle class blacks see value in the area were maybe middle class whites do not. I don't think it matters what the majority of people moving in or out are. Tinley park is right next door to country club hills and tinley park is 90 percent white.
I grew up in the South Suburbs (brief time in Harvey but spent bulk of childhood in Glenwood and Homewood) and I wish that I could disagree with suburban_boy, but unfortunately, what he says appears to be the reality. Maybe you're right that Country Club Hills might have seen an uptick in retail, but until you've lived in the North and West Suburbs (as I have since graduating from high school), you don't realize how ridiculously underserved the South Suburbs are in comparison. The vacancy rate in CCH might technically be lower than some places like Orland Park or Naperville, but those latter two suburbs have so many more retail developments that it's not a true comparison.
I noted the very dramatic demographic and test score changes over the past decade at my high school alma mater of H-F in this post:
From what I've seen of CCH, the changes have been even more dramatic than the H-F area. Nothing kills property values more than the perception that the public schools are on the decline (and in the case of H-F, the test scores have definitely been dropping very rapidly).
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