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Someone please lock Montclairion up in the Oakland Zoo. His posts make about as much sense as one of the Hamadryas Baboons locked up there.
Well .. whatever his problem is - he made it apparent with each post trying to elevate himself and denying obvious facts pertaining specifically to Del Norte and northern Humboldt redwoods. He interjected about his many miles and years among the redwoods - but none of his replies correlate with reality. Even some first-time hikers in Redwood National, Prairie Creek or Jedediah Smith are aware the forest and ferns didn't get clobbered by the past couple year's dry spells - late spring to early autumn.
That's partly why these images speak more clearly and coherently, allowing the forest to tell express the truth. In the northernmost parks, including the GOT, etc., ferns are doing okay of to the side where people do not trample them. But the bare swaths of destroyed vegetation and soil compaction stem from human foot traffic. And in the case of the GOT, triggered by leaks and someone who could care less about the vegetation.
One more crystal clear example. Last autumn, post-drought (s). Destroyed vegetation only where people trample. Otherwise distant ferns look lush, even the ones way up on the trunk.
More anonymous pseudo-research that's improperly applied?
Anonymous pseudo-research - I think not Mario. It appears you'll say most anything to support your at-best anecdotal evidence, which consists primarily of photos taken before and after the high point of the draught.
There aren't all that many scientists focused on Redwoods and the understory. What I provided was results of solid work from scientists with peer reviewed research.
Emily Burns
Director of Science
Emily studies redwood forest and understory ecology.
She has a PhD in the physiological influence of climate on coast redwood forest plants from the University of California (UC). At UC, she discovered that 80 percent of redwood forest species can absorb fog water directly through their leaves to stay hydrated during California’s dry summer months. Emily conducted research as postdoctoral scholar at the University of California, Santa Cruz, on the drought tolerance of redwood forest ferns. In 2009, she worked with Chabot Space & Science Center to initiate a citizen science research project for the redwood forest that uses the sword fern as an indicator species of climate change. This project engages volunteers to collect important data needed to understand climate change impacts on local flora. She is a Visiting Scholar at the University of California, Berkeley, and continues to publish her botanical research in peer-reviewed literature.
Jarmila Pittermann
Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
University of California, Santa Cruz Physical & Biological Sciences
Department PBSci-Ecology & Evolutionary Biology Department
831-459-1782 jpitterm@ucsc.edu Campus Directory - UC Santa Cruz
Dr. Emily Limm
Dr. Emily Limm received her Ph.D. in integrative biology from U.C. Berkeley, and is now a postdoctoral student at U.C. Santa Cruz. Dr. Limm studies how the ferns, shrubs, and trees of the redwood forest absorb fog and how this vital water source maintains the health of the redwood forest. Fog and Redwood Forest Plants | Save the Redwoods League
So, Mario, would you call the above people pseudoscientists? What peer-reviewed scientific literature do you have out there other than photos showing that climate change and draught kills ferns?
From my experience hikers are typically careful about where they step - especially those who go off-trail. You seem to be saying that people are going out of the way to trample ferns. And that they're actually hiking vertically with some sort of space boots so they can go up and murder the ferns.
You may be able to convince Ranger Bob and the Ancient Man about your conspiracy theories but I don't don't think you're doing to well with others - at least from what I can see from messages I've been receiving.
Someone please lock Montclairion up in the Oakland Zoo.
Ancient one...
You certainly don't need the space boots; you're already there. Maybe you can hook me up - I want some. I don't know if you're an alt of Mario or not - not really important. One thing I will say though is that you're pretty darn funny!
Anonymous pseudo-research - I think not Mario. It appears you'll say most anything to support your at-best anecdotal evidence, which consists primarily of photos taken before and after the high point of the draught.
There aren't all that many scientists focused on Redwoods and the understory. What I provided was results of solid work from scientists with peer reviewed research.
Emily Burns
Director of Science
Emily studies redwood forest and understory ecology.
She has a PhD in the physiological influence of climate on coast redwood forest plants from the University of California (UC). At UC, she discovered that 80 percent of redwood forest species can absorb fog water directly through their leaves to stay hydrated during California’s dry summer months. Emily conducted research as postdoctoral scholar at the University of California, Santa Cruz, on the drought tolerance of redwood forest ferns. In 2009, she worked with Chabot Space & Science Center to initiate a citizen science research project for the redwood forest that uses the sword fern as an indicator species of climate change. This project engages volunteers to collect important data needed to understand climate change impacts on local flora. She is a Visiting Scholar at the University of California, Berkeley, and continues to publish her botanical research in peer-reviewed literature.
Jarmila Pittermann
Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology
University of California, Santa Cruz Physical & Biological Sciences
Department PBSci-Ecology & Evolutionary Biology Department
831-459-1782 jpitterm@ucsc.edu Campus Directory - UC Santa Cruz
Dr. Emily Limm
Dr. Emily Limm received her Ph.D. in integrative biology from U.C. Berkeley, and is now a postdoctoral student at U.C. Santa Cruz. Dr. Limm studies how the ferns, shrubs, and trees of the redwood forest absorb fog and how this vital water source maintains the health of the redwood forest. Fog and Redwood Forest Plants | Save the Redwoods League
So, Mario, would you call the above people pseudoscientists? What peer-reviewed scientific literature do you have out there other than photos showing that climate change and draught kills ferns?
From my experience hikers are typically careful about where they step - especially those who go off-trail. You seem to be saying that people are going out of the way to trample ferns. And that they're actually hiking vertically with some sort of space boots so they can go up and murder the ferns.
You may be able to convince Ranger Bob and the Ancient Man about your conspiracy theories but I don't don't think you're doing to well with others - at least from what I can see from messages I've been receiving.
Montclairion you mention in a post last week you are visiting the northern redwood parks this year. At that time you will see the issue with your own eyes and may feel differently. Mark
Montclairion you mention in a post last week you are visiting the northern redwood parks this year. At that time you will see the issue with your own eyes and may feel differently. Mark
Mark ...
I think 90 out of 100 people could tell from photos posted that monteclairion's replies related to some vacuum rather than the northernmost redwood parks. He reminds me of the guy who first leaked the GOT. I recall the GOT leaking guy on the phone some years ago. There was no will to learn. He kept looking (pointing) to anything that would back up his opinion and standpoint. A trip to the north this year will probably not help him because new frond growth may occur by then -- leaving his own mind clinging to itself.
Instead of round-filing his rhetoric, sharing real photos of the north park redwoods seemed the best option. Not for him --- but for other readers. The redwoods and ferns can't be argued with, undermined or insulted. They speak the truth.
Here's one from Redwood National Park. A redwood that very few people walk up to at a less traveled trail. This is last October ... post-drought years. No real visible trace of drought impact to the ferns.
Readers may catch montclairion's derogatory remarks toward Dr. Sillett in recent replies. The unrelated yet actual studies and names he was throwing around are collaborators with Dr. Sillett. They are part of each other's peer review. And they network together. So aside from just missing the point, he's actually undermining his own examples. Its multi-faceted chaos on all levels of expression and understanding.
The unrelated yet actual studies and names he was throwing around are collaborators with Dr. Sillett. They are part of each other's peer review. And they network together.
Mario, apparently, after a bit of research apparently you found that the scientists I referred to happen to be connected to Sillett. All of a sudden they've gone from pseudoscientists to esteemed researchers. Glad you changed your tune on this one. Sillett is like an interesting fellow - read some of the stuff he wrote - he seems well informed and level headed.
Going back to the beginning of this extended dialogue we find the 2 photos that you used to connect soil compaction and trampling as being responsible for the degradation of the fern canopy. I still feel you are dead wrong about this, the photos themselves undermine your argument, and that you are conflating differences in the canopy caused by temperature, lack of air moisture and and low flows in the waterways with hikers' doings. Simply, I don't buy your analysis - at least based on these 2 photos. I'm not saying that hikers and photographers and whoever else walks around the redwood forest do not affect the understory, I'm saying that your photos, at least the two I'm referring to, don't make your case; the differences in them are caused primarily by environmental factors. The difference between the images is strikingly clear; your reasoning is not.
I was up in your neck of the woods with my son last season before the latest rains hit, and certain areas were oppressively dry and the fern canopy was severely compromised in places, simply burned out. Other areas appeared fine. I have not been up that way this season but plan to do some exploring soon and I'll get a better understanding of where things stand now.
On another note, I spent the day hiking through one of the local Redwood forests today and I was amazed how the recent rains rejuvenated many of the ferns and stimulated significant new growth in the redwoods.
Monty
Last edited by Montclairion; 04-19-2016 at 03:39 AM..
Montclairion you mention in a post last week you are visiting the northern redwood parks this year. At that time you will see the issue with your own eyes and may feel differently. Mark
Agreed. Maybe you and Mario could message me some GPS coordinates for places you want me to look at. Maybe we could even all have a beer. And the Ancient One - yeah, I'd like to share a beer with him.
Mario, apparently, after a bit of research apparently you found
Monty
No ... after reading your replies, it was evident that nothing you wrote was right in regards to Jedediah Smith and trampled ferns and loss of vegetation around some trees.
Plus, I've already read all the links and stuff you were interjecting months or years ago. I've seen some research stuff before its published.
In a nutshell, your opinion is a calamity because you mis-apply information.
Agreed. Maybe you and Mario could message me some GPS coordinates for places you want me to look at. Maybe we could even all have a beer. And the Ancient One - yeah, I'd like to share a beer with him.
Monty
Mark could send you some general GPS locations. But half the photos I shared would be similar and could just be named.
If I happened to be in the area, and you seriously still wanted to have a beer, I may be agreeable to that just for some out-of-the-ordinary conversation.
My normal places to meet for beer or beverage near Crescent City are the Chart Room Restaurant, Port O Pints Brewery, and upstairs at the Good Harvest.
Mario, certainly I realize that conditions up in the far North are wetter. I just don't think your 2 opposing photos make your case, and that they tell an entirely different story. There are several things you might consider...
In comparing both photos side-by-side, look at the moss. In the lush photo, the one with the fellow with the grey-green sweater, you can see the tree trunk almost completely covered by moss. The bark is plump with moisture. Also, the depression in the trunk is pregnant with plant material most likely held together in part by the root structures of the ferns.
In the opposing photo, the one with the woman with the red jacket, most of the moss is gone and the striations in the bark are sharp and dry. It's my hypothesis that as the tree bark dried out along with the drying out of the compressed plant matter, that ultimately this mass of matter just popped out without the moisture to keep it consolidated, this and a weakened root structure from the drying ferns. You can see in the photo that the chunks of this matter have spilled out onto the forest floor, many of the pieces still intact. If your theory was correct - in that people had trampled around the base of the tree, then these loosely held together clumps would have been easily mashed down. But they're not; they're still holding together.
As far as the diminished fern footprint, I'd say from past experience, that you're looking at wet years followed by exceptionally dry years and I'd say this is typical for fern expansion and contraction. Remember, it's not just the rainfall, which was down for the years during the draught, but heat, fog and moisture in the air, were also diminished. And according to the research, some highlights which I presented, the determining factor in fern propagation is air moisture content during the summer months from fog along with ambient air moisture.
Anyway, I won't belabor this point any longer. We can agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdvaden
If I happened to be in the area, and you seriously still wanted to have a beer, I may be agreeable to that just for some out-of-the-ordinary conversation.
My normal places to meet for beer or beverage near Crescent City are the Chart Room Restaurant, Port O Pints Brewery, and upstairs at the Good Harvest.
I'll get in touch when I head up that way.
Also, I should mention that I had a chance to review your web site. Very nice and most informative. Great pictures. I especially liked the one with the sunbeams shining through the trees.
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