Bay Area Regional Leaders Propose $1.4T Plan To Address Housing and Transit Issues; Universal Basic Income (Fresno: real estate, 2015)

[davdaven]

Originally Posted by masterchingsinc

united arab emirates.

Whoa, whoa. I do NOT want to do what the UAE is doing, which is diversifying its economy on the backs of indentured servants. It's modern day slavery and has no business being adopted here in the United States.

As for UBI, the original concept is that it would replace welfare and other social programs. Early research suggests that UBI, which does not have the same "gotchas" as welfare and other social programs, actually allows people to seek out better work opportunities. Current programs often have strict income and savings restrictions that deter people from employment because any part-time gig they take on would simply result in less food on the table and less money in the bank for things like rent, making their situations even worse than if they just stayed on welfare. Seems that people who have the strongest feelings on this don't understand how the existing system is designed to make people fail.

I think the disconnect on UBI is that current trial programs don't seem to be a replacement for welfare and other social services. Obviously free money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is middle class taxpayers, and everybody pays the price with inflation.

[Des-Lab]

Originally Posted by RationalExpectations

Actually, income inequality is a good thing. A very good thing.

Income inequaltiy provides incentives for people to add more value to society by migrating towards higher value-add employment - which pays more. It provides incentives for extraordinary performance. Yes, it is clearly a very, very good thing.

Originally Posted by ysr_racer

I'll try to tell this, and leave politics out

One group of people see someone with a nice house and say, what do I have to do to have a nice house like that.

The other group of people see someone with a nice house and say, waaa, it's not fair, waaa, I want a nice house too.

I'll leave it up to you to figure out which group is which.

But you'd think hunger and homelessness would motivate people to get off their ass and get a job (there are help wanted signs everywhere), but it's probably easier sitting at home and getting a check.

Check mate to me on both these points. No argument on either one and both of you are absolutely correct.

[masterchingsinc]

Originally Posted by davdaven

Whoa, whoa. I do NOT want to do what the UAE is doing, which is diversifying its economy on the backs of indentured servants. It's modern day slavery and has no business being adopted here in the United States.

As for UBI, the original concept is that it would replace welfare and other social programs. Early research suggests that UBI, which does not have the same "gotchas" as welfare and other social programs, actually allows people to seek out better work opportunities. Current programs often have strict income and savings restrictions that deter people from employment because any part-time gig they take on would simply result in less food on the table and less money in the bank for things like rent, making their situations even worse than if they just stayed on welfare. Seems that people who have the strongest feelings on this don't understand how the existing system is designed to make people fail.

I think the disconnect on UBI is that current trial programs don't seem to be a replacement for welfare and other social services. Obviously free money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is middle class taxpayers, and everybody pays the price with inflation.

California can't be hypocritcal if we are going to call out Dubai for its servants take a long look at ourselves every bomb we drop is money not used to feed our kids and the cheap labor from the central valley and china is what then?

[stablegenius]

Originally Posted by RationalExpectations

Actually, income inequality is a good thing. A very good thing.

Income inequaltiy provides incentives for people to add more value to society by migrating towards higher value-add employment - which pays more. It provides incentives for extraordinary performance. Yes, it is clearly a very, very good thing.

I agree with all of your points. This and that last really long one. I don’t think poverty can ever be eradicated. There are always going to be poor. UBI as Tulemutt describes it sounds like an interesting idea, and hell, maybe it could even work. But I don’t have faith in our elected officials to do it right, so it’ll never work. I don’t believe welfare will be swapped for UBI… it will just end up being a new entitlement program.

[RationalExpectations]

Originally Posted by stablegenius

I agree with all of your points. This and that last really long one. I don’t think poverty can ever be eradicated. There are always going to be poor. UBI as Tulemutt describes it sounds like an interesting idea, and hell, maybe it could even work. But I don’t have faith in our elected officials to do it right, so it’ll never work. I don’t believe welfare will be swapped for UBI… it will just end up being a new entitlement program.

Clearly true. The history of transfer payments in the US is almost always "... in addition to" and almost never "...instead of."

[stablegenius]

Originally Posted by apple92680

Universal Basic Income and Medicare For All.

I'd like to see both in my lifetime.

Medicare-for-All (coupled with the Janus Supreme Court ruling) would break the death grip that public sector unions have on this state. Your right to obtain health care wouldn't be dictated by union membership any longer. It would also free up a lot of the expenses that business pay to have private insurance group plans. It's a win-win all around.

UBI goes straight into the economy and has the potential to dislodge money from Wall Street and put it back on Main Street, where it will benefit a larger segment of the population.

Populist "Joe Sixpack" conservatives shouldn't be objecting to either Medicare-For-All, or UBI....but, alas, they seem to lose all common sense when the bobble heads at Fox News/OAN/Newsmax start spouting off on their nightly BS.

As if Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Shannon Brean or Tucker Carlson have ever had the misfortune of worrying about anything like having health care or basic income, in their lives?

Is there a catch? Yes, one. I think immigration would have to be much more closely monitored and a system like Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Canada have, would have to be put in place.

You make some good points here especially about the unions. Too bad you had to make it political though. And yes, I would be more inclined to try UBI if we actually secured our border.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by stablegenius

… I don’t believe welfare will be swapped for UBI… it will just end up being a new entitlement program.

Then it won’t be UBI … it will be a new entitlement program. *Universal* Basic Income is just that: *Universal* … that is: equal for all … not entitlement.

That said, people will call things whatever they want.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by stablegenius

You make some good points here especially about the unions. Too bad you had to make it political though. And yes, I would be more inclined to try UBI if we actually secured our border.

What does securing the border have to do with UBI, since UBI is designed to be a dividend only for legal citizens?

[stablegenius]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

What does securing the border have to do with UBI, since UBI is designed to be a dividend only for legal citizens?

Forgot that was a requirement. Yes assuming that is the case no problem i guess. But once again, I don’t think they would stick to that requirement. I don’t believe true UBI the way you describe it will ever happen in this country. Something will get modified and it will no longer be UBI at that point

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by stablegenius

Forgot that was a requirement. Yes assuming that is the case no problem i guess. But once again, I don’t think they would stick to that requirement. I don’t believe true UBI the way you describe it will ever happen in this country. Something will get modified and it will no longer be UBI at that point

Well, I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if the UBI concept got totally mangled and morphed into something else … but the essential concept is sound …