Anyone Attend an Atlanta "Tea Party"? (Lula: houses, to buy)
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Yes, it was all the liberal news media's fault we've had a running deficit since WWII and no one talked about it in the 80's...they covered up Bush Sr. calling it Reagan's policy Voodoo Economics. This is a breaking news story that Fox only discovered since the early hours of Nov 5. The fact is even Cavuto presided over one in Sacramento. Last time I checked he still claims an anchor desk. I don't doubt there is bias in the media(they are human) but to claim that Fox has removed this veil is a bit ridiculous. If nothing else, they choose the most audacious and inflammatory stories (think Yellow Journalism) to win viewership.
As for the 15 yr old complaining about the 36k in taxes he owes. Unless he's a successful small business owner, I don't see him actually getting a tax bill. If he's just getting fed the calculation of the deficit and assuming he owes that much b/c they divided it by the # of people in the country, then I fear for him when he fails to understand the time-value of money or that 90% of those taxes will be paid for by people that make more money than him and likely had a lot more to do w/ this current crisis.
For those of us in the actual top quintile of income that do pay the vast majority of taxes, the current spending may bear some significance but a huge % of those protesters likely pay a lower tax bill than me (and got tax cuts from Mr. Obama). Of course most educated people can see that this current mass of spending is in response to nearly a decade of policies and unrestricted marketization that resulted in banks making a mad rush for outsized returns that could never be sustained. As a person w/ a 401k, I also know that the index funds inside often provided the capital these banks used to do this gold rush and that the levels of management essentially meant no one was at the wheel. The current level of spending is a concern but as a % of GDP its still relatively low but definitely should watch how Obama handles fiscal policy as the economy bottoms and eventually turns.
This sudden global outrage wreaks of manufacture. The top 1% of earners still makes a huge chunk of the income pie. They do pay some heavy taxes but I haven't seen many who've decided to walk away and go on the gov't till. For every one that would leave, likely 6 people would fight to get his job. The growing disparity in top 1% income is something that's been growing rapidly since the 80's when Reagan dropped their taxes. It's not that the poor don't pay taxes (they do w/ FICA, sales tax, state taxes, embedded taxes in rent) but the bottom quintile of income(0-$25k) hasn't moved in real income since the early 70's meaning they really don't have anything to tax. They make up like 6% of total income which after factoring cost of living...there's really no discretionary income they can put toward savings or retirement (or that the gov't could actually tax).
Yes yes, we all know government has been spending more than it takes in for some time. No that's not the liberal media's fault and no Fox didn't just break that story. But sudden outrage? We all know congress spends too much. Republican or Democratic. Gingrich dragged Clinton to the table to sign meaningful spending cuts, but not much changed after the Contract with America brought in lots of new faces to congress...welcome to the machine that is DC.
Why is it that when the here and now is discussed regarding unprecedented spending we are reminded of WWII spending? You don't have to look that far back. And George Bush isn't going to win any "thataboys" from me for his part in this mess... but I wouldn't sugar coat this.
What's the % of GDP in the outyears of Obama's budget when we pile on this new spending, plus new program budgets and their expanded payrolls that never go away once started, plus year over year baseline budgeting increases, plus the interest on this new debt, plus the interest on the old pile of debt created by the vicious, mean-spirited "who did the same thing we're doing now so it doesn't really matter" Republicans. We're still paying for the New Deal and that was peanuts compared to this money. Sure there was overspending then... but does that negate this debacle?
Yes, the 15 year old WILL eventually get a tax bill. Will it be literally $36K?who knows. The point is, we're going to passing on a massive new debt never before scaled to this size...onto our children.
Here again, you don't really think he'll feel the pinch of increased taxes even if he doesn't become rich...only the rich will pay the increased load? There's taxes and then there's hidden taxes. Corporations build their increase tax burden (along with all their other costs) into the products they sell. That 15 year old has to pay those hidden taxes in the form of more expensive goods... further reducing his discretionary income. Of course we can just solve this dilema by blaming the evil corporations. Government plays a huge roll on the economic stage... and has to assume lots of the responsibilities for the ripple effects of their actions.
Last edited by Randy323; 04-16-2009 at 05:34 PM..
Reason: typo
Curious if you can explain how after decades of deficit spending vs Obama's stimulus bill, Clinton was able to pull off a surplus in the 90s. You don't think that if the economy turns around and tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy are eliminated that we'll have another surplus in 10 years time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy323
Yes yes, we all know government has been spending more than it takes in for some time. No that's not the liberal media's fault and no Fox didn't just break that story. But sudden outrage? We all know congress spends too much. Republican or Democratic. Gingrich dragged Clinton to the table to sign meaningful spending cuts, but not much changed after the Contract with America brought in lots of new faces to congress...welcome to the machine that is DC.
Why is it that when the here and now is discussed regarding unprecedented spending we are reminded of WWII spending? You don't have to look that far back. And George Bush isn't going to win any "thataboys" from me for his part in this mess... but I wouldn't sugar coat this.
What's the % of GDP in the outyears of Obama's budget when we pile on this new spending, plus new program budgets and their expanded payrolls that never go away once started, plus year over year baseline budgeting increases, plus the interest on this new debt, plus the interest on the old pile of debt created by the vicious, mean-spirited "who did the same thing we're doing now so it doesn't really matter" Republicans. We're still paying for the New Deal and that was peanuts compared to this money. Sure there was overspending then... but does that negate this debacle?
Yes, the 15 year old WILL eventually get a tax bill. Will it be literally $36K?who knows. The point is, we're going to passing on a massive new debt never before scaled to this size...onto our children.
Here again, you don't really think he'll feel the pinch of increased taxes even if he doesn't become rich...only the rich will pay the increased load? There's taxes and then there's hidden taxes. Corporations build their increase tax burden (along with all their other costs) into the products they sell. That 15 year old has to pay those hidden taxes in the form of more expensive goods... further reducing his discretionary income. Of course we can just solve this dilema by blaming the evil corporations. Government plays a huge roll on the economic stage... and has to assume lots of the responsibilities for the ripple effects of their actions.
the majority of the signs seem to be demanding lower taxes, but that is exactly what Obama is offering.
I'd suggest that you stop listening to the sound bites on TV and research the actual proposed budget and tax proposals. Letting the "Bush tax cuts" expire will be a tax increase on anyone who pays taxes, at all the marginal rates, just with a greater bite for those at the higher end who pay more tax and bear a higher burden to begin with.
Add the broad energy taxes being proposed, and anyone who drives, uses electricity, or heats their home will be affected. The bald faced lie that "95% of taxpayers" will receive some kind of tax cut is just that...a lie. The fact remains that the top 50% of wage earners pay 100% of the taxes, with the evil top 1% of wage earners paying 40% of the federal income taxes.
This piece in the Wall Street Journal (hardly left-leaning) suggests that there may be method, not madness, to the current administration's financial policies: Obama's 'House Upon a Rock' - WSJ.com
I've been complaining for years about Bush's tax cuts and Iraq war spending creating an unfair financial burden on our children. It's been particularly noticeable to me because we moved in 2002 from Canada, which was a model of fiscal responsibility under the last Liberal government. All I'd get from conservative friends in the last few years was that the Bush administration knew what it was doing, and the US economy would grow its way out of deficits, propelled by the mighty engine of tax cuts. Now that the US economy is in the tank and economists across the spectrum agree that government action is needed to bail the economy out of this mess, suddenly conservatives across the land have discovered the concept of generational tax transfer. I'm not impressed.
I've been complaining for years about Bush's tax cuts and Iraq war spending creating an unfair financial burden on our children. It's been particularly noticeable to me because we moved in 2002 from Canada, which was a model of fiscal responsibility under the last Liberal government. All I'd get from conservative friends in the last few years was that the Bush administration knew what it was doing, and the US economy would grow its way out of deficits, propelled by the mighty engine of tax cuts. Now that the US economy is in the tank and economists across the spectrum agree that government action is needed to bail the economy out of this mess, suddenly conservatives across the land have discovered the concept of generational tax transfer. I'm not impressed.
Security and safety is not up for negotiation and isn't fought for based on cost, so the argument about the war to me is ridiculous. Having said that, I agree that Republicans have not been good stewards of the taxpayer dollars any more than Democrats.
I know it sounds silly to say, but "two wrongs don't make a right," so do we ignore bad policy now because we had bad policy in the past?
Government action is needed, but the action taken by the adminsitration and Congress is not the right kind of action. We had an opportunity for a meaningful stimulus package that could have left us with the equivalent of the Golden Gate Bridge, GW Bridge, and TVA for the 21st century. Instead we got mostly social spending with some mediocre and probably ineffective tax cuts, and at a HUGE cost in borrowed money.
The budget being proposed is nothing more than huge increases in the scope of government and social obligations of government, and these obligations will last long after the current crisis is over. You also have to look at the math....it doesn't add up. You could take 100% of the wages of the top 5% of wage earners and still not come up with the $4 trillion being proposed.
What would the protesters like to happen in the coming weeks/months? Having looked at several online photo galleries, the majority of the signs seem to be demanding lower taxes, but that is exactly what Obama is offering.
It'd be interesting to see how many people showed up if this event were held on any day other than today.
What they're hoping to accomplish is to turn the tide of public opinion against the President and hopefully for them; set themselves up to get one of their own and their party in general back in power. They tried to label this as non-partisan which is a joke. This was as politically motivated as can be. Look at all those who are being mentioned as possible Publican candidates in 2012 who wanted to make sure to align themselves with this in one way or another.
Curious if you can explain how after decades of deficit spending vs Obama's stimulus bill, Clinton was able to pull off a surplus in the 90s. You don't think that if the economy turns around and tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy are eliminated that we'll have another surplus in 10 years time?
The 90's surpluses were a sham. "Fuzzy accounting" was utilized. Remember "irrational exuberance"? Just like the dot com bubble.
The 90's surpluses were a sham. "Fuzzy accounting" was utilized. Remember "irrational exuberance"? Just like the dot com bubble.
So you're telling me, they did not exist at all. Not one $1 of surplus? Fuzzy accounting, eh? Just like how Bush Jr didn't include military spending in his budget, making his expenditures seem even smaller?
I'd suggest that you stop listening to the sound bites on TV and research the actual proposed budget and tax proposals. Letting the "Bush tax cuts" expire will be a tax increase on anyone who pays taxes, at all the marginal rates, just with a greater bite for those at the higher end who pay more tax and bear a higher burden to begin with.
Add the broad energy taxes being proposed, and anyone who drives, uses electricity, or heats their home will be affected. The bald faced lie that "95% of taxpayers" will receive some kind of tax cut is just that...a lie. The fact remains that the top 50% of wage earners pay 100% of the taxes, with the evil top 1% of wage earners paying 40% of the federal income taxes.
Sorry, but my income tax will go down with Obama as it will for most Americans. The teabaggers are fighting a cause that for most of them is against their own self-interests and against what is needed to improve this country.
I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes. I don't expect to get a free pass or a handout. But I know that at my modest income I'd like to have money after I pay my taxes to support myself and save for the future.
I have NO PROBLEM with the wealthy paying a higher percentage of taxes in 2011 when I know that they can still pay CPAs to hide some of that wealth "off-shore". I have NO PROBLEM knowing that after they pay their taxes they will still have plenty of money to buy multiple houses, investment property, luxury cars and lavish trips. I work hard, I save, and I plan to better myself. The freedom to be an American allows me these oopportunities and I have no problem contributing back to society so that others with that same drive can succeed.
As an educated consumer I know that I can choose to live in a smaller home or an apartment that costs much, much less to heat or uses far less electricity than a McMansion. That I can live closer to my job and use far less gasoline and avoid any gasoline taxes. Or better yet, use public transportation and avoid them altogether.
I don't support welfare queens or thug culture or criminal behavior and I most certainly do NOT advocate an increase in welfare benefits at all. But I do know that my fellow citizens do deserve better healthcare, better education and more police officers, public transportation options and other necessities that make getting a job, starting a family or just surviving in this world a lot less of a burden. I do NOT support or expect handouts. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
However as a citizen I have no problem paying taxes to help give people a start in the right direction.
So you're telling me, they did not exist at all. Not one $1 of surplus? Fuzzy accounting, eh? Just like how Bush Jr didn't include military spending in his budget, making his expenditures seem even smaller?
Yes it wasn't exactly a surplus but they were paying down the debt at such a fast pace the Fed actually became concerned. It seems as if having too much of a surplus isn't good either? Its kind of like paying of your credit cards and closing them. You need to have a couple open to show everyone you can handle credit responsibly.
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