Is north fulton still trying to break away? (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: Home Depot, neighborhoods)

[GF72]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I have noticed that county governments tend to be the most corrupt.

well Atlanta city government is pretty corrupt.

And apart from the city of Atlanta, most of the Atlanta area counties are basically the equivalent of a city. Clayton County, Cobb County, Gwinnett, these are all the equivalents of medium-large cities in most metro areas.

Not all county governments are bad though - Cobb for example.

The county problem really goes back to Georgia history. Unfortunately we've gone forward but we're still held back by the stupid decisions from the past.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Atlanta should be a network of cities, towns, townships, and villages...with a much-larger city proper.

Many states use that model, NY State being one. I lived in NY State and in Massachusetts (where there are no functioning county governments). One of the negatives in states like NY is that all the layered on government adds heavily to the tax burden. You have the county, then the town, and then the village or city. Each layer has to take its cut from you.

In Massachusetts, you have something like 155 individual towns and cities, all with their own police, fire, schools, public works, building dept., dog catcher, etc. That lack of scale also makes for extremely inefficient government with a ton of overlap and redundancy in small geographic areas. Towns of less than 10K people all need the same bureaucracy which cause taxes to be higher due to the small tax base and keeps services poor. I was actually told by the DPW of a town in MA that they couldn't fix potholes because they didn't have enough money in their budget. The high school in my town couldn't fix a leaky roof or renovate for the same reason.

I personally like the county system in GA. I think that in a county like Cobb, you get modern, efficient government that is still responsive but not fighting a small tax base or lack of scale.

[GF72]

There are too many layers of government in the US.

Honestly, we don't need counties. Rural areas can be governed by the state, and urban areas should all be split up into cities - nothing more, nothing less.

Atlanta area should be split up into decently large sized cities - Most of Fulton and Dekalb should be Atlanta city limits. North Fulton/East Cobb/Dunwoody should be another city. Cobb and Gwinnett two more cities, etc. The rural Georgia countryside should have city governments for the little towns, and all the empty space would just be state land instead of county land.

[J2rescue]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Yep. That's what people don't realize...in Georgia, counties are given too much power (particularly as it affects urban/suburban areas).


Urban/suburban areas are not supposed to be run by counties.

Atlanta should be a network of cities, towns, townships, and villages...with a much-larger city proper.

I agree. This system has also contributed to the galaxy of sprawl that is metro Atlanta today.

[J2rescue]

Originally Posted by GF72

If Buckhead manages to break free of Atlanta before Milton, I'm guessing it would join in on the Milton County bandwagon.

However, Buckhead actually breaking free will be pretty difficult. As for the naming thing... the existing Buckhead is a tiny, poor little town. Maybe all it would take to convince them to change their name is some... donations...

The Buckhead secession was proposed by the Fulton County Taxpayers Foundation in July. The biggest hurdle to overcome would be convincing the people that need to sign on (including the Governor) that Buckhead seceding won't bankrupt Atlanta. However, Buckhead provides almost 50% of the cities taxes, and the GPD is $72 billion, which is higher than most countries, so they'll have a tough time.

Actually the biggest hurdle is convincing a majority of the city residents to vote for it. Good luck with that...

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

Here is a better idea: Do what is done in places like Minnesota, Illinois, etc. and simply reduce the powers of county government. Let East Cobb be its own township. County governments get in the way.

I agree -- the idea of county-level government controlling such things like police and fire stations, water/sewer, and especially schools blows my mind.

There's nothing like diluting the product being offered to the citizens because of scale issues.

Yes, Georgia counties are smaller than those in Minnesota, for example, but they're still many times larger than a typical incorporated city or independent school district -- large Atlanta metro countries have poulations of 500,000+ versus 50,000-100,000 for a typical suburban city in the Twin Cities metro, and country-level school districts have 10-20 high schools versus 1-3 in most of the MN independent school districts).

On the other hand, it *has* been interesting to see how the Georgia style of suburban organization compares to the organization in other places, and the end result is not all bad. It's inflexible, certainly, but in some respects it seems to work. Counties having more power results in some advantages due to greater centralization, and citizens have fewer levels of government to deal with (though in my experience there might be more red tape down here than I had to deal with in MN).

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Many states use that model, NY State being one. I lived in NY State and in Massachusetts (where there are no functioning county governments). One of the negatives in states like NY is that all the layered on government adds heavily to the tax burden. You have the county, then the town, and then the village or city. Each layer has to take its cut from you.

Strangely enough, however, we had no more sales tax or property tax in the Twin Cities than we do down here in Metro Atlanta even though all of the layers were present. The metro is a series of counties, and under the county everything is either an incorporated city, a village, or a township (though everything within 30 miles of Minneapolis city center is a city these days). The county does less, and is thus able to focus more on what it has on its plate. Things like schools aren't handled on either level -- the school district structure only loosely follows city boundaries.

In Massachusetts, you have something like 155 individual towns and cities, all with their own police, fire, schools, public works, building dept., dog catcher, etc. That lack of scale also makes for extremely inefficient government with a ton of overlap and redundancy in small geographic areas. Towns of less than 10K people all need the same bureaucracy which cause taxes to be higher due to the small tax base and keeps services poor. I was actually told by the DPW of a town in MA that they couldn't fix potholes because they didn't have enough money in their budget. The high school in my town couldn't fix a leaky roof or renovate for the same reason.

Then why doesn't Minnesota have the same problems? We've been over this before, and I think the issues are either with the people involved or with the specific implementation used in places like MA and NY, not the city/township/village system itself.

I personally like the county system in GA. I think that in a county like Cobb, you get modern, efficient government that is still responsive but not fighting a small tax base or lack of scale.

I think the system used in the State of Minnesota can be held up as a solid counter-example. More levels of government work VERY well when properly implemented. Compare that state to Georgia on as many levels as you like, and I think you'll find that MN compares quite favorably. Compared it to MA as well if you like. There's a reason I'm actually somewhat proud to be a former Minnesotan -- the folks up there have their act together for the most part, something I'm not sure I can say about Atlanta. I like living here, and Cobb County seems to have its act together, but some of the things happening down here are really eye-opening to an outsider.

[GF72]

I've never gotten any speeding tickets so I don't know what the process is, but some of my friends have gotten speeding tickets in multiple places, and they said when they get one in Fulton County they have to spend an entire day trying to get it resolved, but when it's in Cobb County takes like 10 minutes. Once my friend got his car towed by Atlanta city government, and had to make about 3 trips to City Hall East (most of them day-long) and one downtown, and didn't get his car back for about 2 weeks, and had to pay the towing company for every day of those two weeks. I drove him to a couple of these places... it was the only time I saw Atlanta city government in action and it was a nightmare. We were at city hall east for like.... 5 hours. It didn't help that it was an ugly wreck of a place and the employees seemed to take joy in infuriating anyone and everyone.

On the other hand, it was pretty amusing to see such a wide variety of people interacting with one another. Mostly, watching a rich family (whose son somehow got arrested for an unpaid traffic ticket) huddling in fear of.... everybody else.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Strangely enough, however, we had no more sales tax or property tax in the Twin Cities than we do down here in Metro Atlanta even though all of the layers were present. The metro is a series of counties, and under the county everything is either an incorporated city, a village, or a township (though everything within 30 miles of Minneapolis city center is a city these days). The county does less, and is thus able to focus more on what it has on its plate. Things like schools aren't handled on either level -- the school district structure only loosely follows city boundaries.


Then why doesn't Minnesota have the same problems? We've been over this before, and I think the issues are either with the people involved or with the specific implementation used in places like MA and NY, not the city/township/village system itself.


I think the system used in the State of Minnesota can be held up as a solid counter-example. More levels of government work VERY well when properly implemented. Compare that state to Georgia on as many levels as you like, and I think you'll find that MN compares quite favorably. Compared it to MA as well if you like. There's a reason I'm actually somewhat proud to be a former Minnesotan -- the folks up there have their act together for the most part, something I'm not sure I can say about Atlanta. I like living here, and Cobb County seems to have its act together, but some of the things happening down here are really eye-opening to an outsider.

Agreed. It would Perdue leaving office and getting a better governor for all of that to happen.

[krahsloop]

Originally Posted by kuvopolis

In general, it is funny how people say they are from Atlanta, Tampa, etc, when they are really from Roswell, Brandon, etc.. And then on top of that, they do everything possible to avoid paying the central city or county's taxes. So they want to have their cake and eat it too.

i don't tell people that i'm from Atlanta as a point of pride or boasting, i say i live in Atlanta because it's a name that people from elsewhere recognize. ever heard of Daphne, AL? most people haven't, yet most have heard of Mobile, AL about 10 minutes away. anyway, as far as i can tell, it's Atlanta that's happily binging on all of N. Fulton's cake.