Should everyone pay for highways? (Atlanta, Cartersville: fit in, apartments, safe area)

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Yuck. Mine is 7.8 miles, and perhaps 15 minutes from door to door (counts walking across a large parking ramp and using two elevators).

I would hate a 45 minute commute each way.

Its not bad, get to spend time with my wife and listening to music. I really enjoy riding MARTA.

[rcsteiner]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Its not bad, get to spend time with my wife and listening to music. I really enjoy riding MARTA.

Yeah, your commute isn't quite as stressful as driving. So the time isn't quite as wasted.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by rcsteiner

Yuck. Mine is 7.8 miles, and perhaps 15 minutes from door to door (counts walking across a large parking ramp and using two elevators).

I would hate a 45 minute commute each way.

Obviously individual situations can vary but in general it's understood that mass transit isn't going to get you to work as fast as driving.

However, I don't think speed is really the goal. The idea is simply to give people an option other than driving.

[Saintmarks]

I find myself arguing on the side of suburbanites on these forumns because of the far leftist/new urbanist views that get purported and the continual bash of suburban areas and arguments against sprawl, etc, etc. So much wrong information is posted to make a point, I have to chime in and refute, sometimes positioning myself further right than my true views actually lie.

At the same time (and this may surprise you), I am totally for funding mass transit alternatives. The existing rail network would make a great commuter network for the whole of the metro area. It's time has come.

I might be in a minority of the more conservative suburbanites in supporting such. However, those that could be swayed often times end up like me on these threads when the inner city crowd bashes their lifestyle and makes it such a partisan thing. Makes you want to vote against it because it is proposed in such a negative light. I think TSPLOST and other regional transit issues would get wider support if it were presented as a win/win situation for all involved. Instead this us vs. them mentality gets espoused (this thread is a perfect example) and it creates more division, more finger pointing and another solution gets mired in political bickering that holds everyone back.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I find myself arguing on the side of suburbanites on these forumns because of the far leftist/new urbanist views ...

Saintmarks, I hear and appreciate what you are saying. I also get sick of the handful of suburban bashers on the forum (as well as the handful of city bashers).


For what it's worth -- and maybe this is not a major point -- "new urbanism" is not at all related to the far left. It's just common sense.

If anything new urbanism would fall on the conservative side of the spectrum, since it advocates utilizing some of the time tested principles we followed in the old days. Things like including sidewalks on our streets; designing towns where it's possible to walk around instead of being required to drive to all destinations; locating shops and work closer to home, using land and water wisely; having parks within walking distance; etc.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I find myself arguing on the side of suburbanites on these forumns because of the far leftist/new urbanist views that get purported and the continual bash of suburban areas and arguments against sprawl, etc, etc. So much wrong information is posted to make a point, I have to chime in and refute, sometimes positioning myself further right than my true views actually lie.

People who complain about others complaining are usually the biggest complainers.

At the same time (and this may surprise you), I am totally for funding mass transit alternatives. The existing rail network would make a great commuter network for the whole of the metro area. It's time has come.

I might be in a minority of the more conservative suburbanites in supporting such. However, those that could be swayed often times end up like me on these threads when the inner city crowd bashes their lifestyle and makes it such a partisan thing. Makes you want to vote against it because it is proposed in such a negative light. I think TSPLOST and other regional transit issues would get wider support if it were presented as a win/win situation for all involved. Instead this us vs. them mentality gets espoused (this thread is a perfect example) and it creates more division, more finger pointing and another solution gets mired in political bickering that holds everyone back.

The problem is that us-vs.-them is deeply entrenched in Georgia politics. Many other places have these problems, to be sure, but the successful ones know when it's time to put their differences aside and get stuff done. Georgia has not learned that yet.

And really, Saintmarks, you're not helping the situation when you focus on only one side of the suburbs-vs.-in-town rivalry. In addition, don't forget that it's really a three-way rivalry: the 'burbs, the ATL, and the country all locked in horns with one another.

However, I'm glad to hear that you're coming out in favor of mass transit in general. And I will be the first to admit that in such a spread-out metro area, it won't be easy to implement. That's why I started the thread, "Real talk about sprawl," to explore what needed to come first: higher density or transit.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Saintmarks, I hear and appreciate what you are saying. I also get sick of the handful of suburban bashers on the forum (as well as the handful of city bashers).


For what it's worth -- and maybe this is not a major point -- "new urbanism" is not at all related to the far left. It's just common sense.

If anything new urbanism would fall on the conservative side of the spectrum, since it advocates utilizing some of the time tested principles we followed in the old days. Things like including sidewalks on our streets; designing towns where it's possible to walk around instead of being required to drive to all destinations; locating shops and work closer to home, using land and water wisely; having parks within walking distance; etc.

It's related to the far left when folks want to take away cars, tax SUVs, force zoning laws to allow no more development, that kind of thing... punitive action to keep people from making their own choices. Instead, why not promote the benefits?

I lived in Surrey, England for two years in the 80s. I was about as far out from London as I was from my home in Cobb to downtown Atlanta. I loved that we could walk five miles to a train station and buy an all in one ticket for the train to Waterloo Station and then all the Tube and busses we wanted for about 5 pounds (equivalent in that day to about $7 or $8). Coming from there back to Cobb in 89, I thought it would be awesome if the old rail line from Canton to Marietta had a commuter line that would then connect into the heart of the city.... like the multi modal station proposed in the gulch and then be able to take a bus or train all over Atlanta. I am all for this.

I also understand the great cost in building something like this. But if promoted correctly and not pitted as a left vs. right thing or a Dem vs. Rep thing or a black vs. white thing, I think the citizens of the metro area would go for it.

Take into account I am not currently in the metro area, tho I do plan to return within 5 - 10 years, so I am very interested in this subject. I am not on the ground to know how the man in the street feels about this. Most of my info comes from the ajc.com site and what I read here on the Atlanta forum of CD. From what I read here, there is a lot of political vitriol that doesn't bode well for this coming into fruition. Just my two cents from where I sit.

[Saintmarks]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

People who complain about others complaining are usually the biggest complainers.



The problem is that us-vs.-them is deeply entrenched in Georgia politics. Many other places have these problems, to be sure, but the successful ones know when it's time to put their differences aside and get stuff done. Georgia has not learned that yet.

And really, Saintmarks, you're not helping the situation when you focus on only one side of the suburbs-vs.-in-town rivalry. In addition, don't forget that it's really a three-way rivalry: the 'burbs, the ATL, and the country all locked in horns with one another.

However, I'm glad to hear that you're coming out in favor of mass transit in general. And I will be the first to admit that in such a spread-out metro area, it won't be easy to implement. That's why I started the thread, "Real talk about sprawl," to explore what needed to come first: higher density or transit.

I would say there was little "us-vs-them" attitudes going on for Hartsfield to have developed as it has, for the Braves to come south, for the Olympics to come to the city. There are plenty of examples of Atlantans and Georgians coming together for the betterment of the city and the state.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

It's related to the far left when folks want to take away cars, tax SUVs, force zoning laws to allow no more development, that kind of thing... punitive action to keep people from making their own choices.

Well, extremists who support that sort of thing are going nowhere fast. However, I've been to several new urbanist conferences and nobody mentioned anything like that at all. They were simply talking about making our cities more livable and not 100% dependent on driving. Adding sidewalks, reducing surface parking lots and curb cuts, placing storefronts and buildings where you can walk into them from the sidewalk (as we used to do) instead of crossing a sea of asphalt, doing more compact development so that you can conserve greenspace, that sort of thing. To me it seems like plucking the best of the old ways of small towns.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by Saintmarks

I would say there was little "us-vs-them" attitudes going on for Hartsfield to have developed as it has, for the Braves to come south, for the Olympics to come to the city. There are plenty of examples of Atlantans and Georgians coming together for the betterment of the city and the state.

You mention great examples of what can happen when we put some of the petty disagreements aside. Problem is, some of our state and local politicians don't seem to want to do that.