World Peace? (believe, delusion, doom, Christ)

[firstborn888]

As an open minded theist I was greatly encouraged by some of the posts in the "Atheism: The way to Peace?" thread.

Especially this one:

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

Atheism only means a lack of belief in a deity. It sadly does not mean we all behave rationally and with empathy towards others...

The concept of an Atheist world rid of evil sounds lovely and fabulous but I am afraid I am far too cynical to believe in such a possibility.

I don't even believe fundamentalists religious people commit crime because of Religion but instead use their Religion as a useful and convenient excuse to commit atrocities with a clear mind. Religion per se is not what kills people, to paraphrase another saying, people kill people.

As an optimist (can't help it) I tend to pull all the positives out and consider the possibilities of peace and see how far we've come as humans. As a realist (can't help that either) I can also see that it seems impossible. But then again...

... One of my great inspirations is what William Wilberforce accomplished. Taking on a lucrative, popular, massive, apparently biblical but barbaric practice (slavery) he appealed to the conscience's of his contemporaries
and in his lifetime saw the British slave trade abolished. Absolutely amazing really. If you haven't seen the movie "Amazing Grace" I would highly recommend it just to see the possibilities of appealing to conscience.

As an activist Gandhi would (of course) be another hero of mine even though I can clearly see the negatives ie: the bloodbath that followed once the British troops left. And (of course) Gandhi's murder. But yet the (somewhat) successful appeal to conscience is very encouraging.

Both of these men fought against their own systems (Wilberforce against "Christian" slavery and Gandhi against the Hindu caste system) .

I have spent most of my time at city data trying to show the absurdity of mainstream Christian dogma to my Christian brothers and sisters. I am often at odds even with the Christian universalists (CU's) who are bible literalists or who adhere to bible inerrancy - even though (as a general rule) they are much more rational than eternal hell fire believers.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with Mooseketeer that we face a human nature problem more than just a religion problem although I recognize that religious fundamentalism is among the biggest obstacles to a more peaceful humane existence here.

So why should I be optimistic at all to the possibilies of world peace? Basically it's because I see many commonalities in humans of all stripes. We want to be loved, we want to belong, we want to be free and we want to be prosperous. We don't like pain, we don't like anguish, we don't like confusion. Peace of mind and being strong and healthy also seems to be high on our priority list. Add that to the gift of empathy and (seeing another's point of view) and it's a recipe for good stuff to happen.

Now I understand that greed, selfishness and fear are also universal (to some degree) even in the best of us. So yes, we have a great challeng. But: hopeless? I'd like to think not. Am I delusional? Well, in the famous words of John Lennon "You may call me a dreamer".

Your thoughts?

[firstborn888]

After re-reading my post I realized it may be confusing as to why I was encouraged by the post I quoted by mooseketeer.

The explanation is that it's encouraging to see people facing the real root of the problem.

With Christians blaming the devil and atheists for our problems and atheists blaming religion and a belief in God - it is refreshing to see such a clear statement of understanding that we simply have a human nature problem.

Since a belief in God isn't going away and a disbelief in God isn't going away - it's comforting for me to know that there are people on both sides who can agree on what the real problem is and (hopefully) get past the "us vs. them" mentality.

Make sense?

[Dusty Rhodes]

I believe it is ignorance that kills people, usually in the forms of bigotry and/or greed.

[MontanaGuy]

It seems to me that it's in the nature of human beings to have a destructive and cruel side as well as a nurturing and creative side and it makes me wonder which one is going to win out in the end. We've made tremendous progress in technology and science that has made life much easier for most of humanity but at the same time we continue to make advancements in how to kill people and fight wars more efficiently. I tend to be optimistic because I think the trend over the centuries has been to become less barbaric and I believe that mankind is gradually becoming more accepting of his fellow man and as the world becomes more interconnected with the internet, the sharing of ideas, and hopefully an understanding of unfamiliar cultures we might actually survive.
What concerns me the most is that our ability to kill people to expand political and military power might be more powerful than our positive qualities. It would be very interesting to see what the fate of mankind will be in say a thousand years. I'm hoping our positive qualities will win in the end.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by MontanaGuy

It seems to me that it's in the nature of human beings to have a destructive and cruel side as well as a nurturing and creative side and it makes me wonder which one is going to win out in the end.

I believe that's what the whole garden of Eden mythology/symbology is all about. It's really ingenious if looked at from a non-fundamentalist/non-literalist viewpoint. The first humans fearful and doomed to lives of struggle ending in death - yet the author is optimistic saying to the serpent "you shall bruise man's heel - but man shall bruise your head" implying a temporary tussle with the knowledge of good and evil and an eventual return to the tree of life (utopia) although having to pass through the flaming swords (wars/violence) to eventually get there.

Originally Posted by MontanaGuy

We've made tremendous progress in technology and science that has made life much easier for most of humanity but at the same time we continue to make advancements in how to kill people and fight wars more efficiently. I tend to be optimistic because I think the trend over the centuries has been to become less barbaric and I believe that mankind is gradually becoming more accepting of his fellow man and as the world becomes more interconnected with the internet, the sharing of ideas, and hopefully an understanding of unfamiliar cultures we might actually survive.

I was working with a full blooded Native American (Apache) back in the 80s and we were like brothers. I had no clue to his exact ethnicity at first and I don't even think much about minority/non-minority (San Antonio is primarily Hispanic anyway - I'm part of the white minority here!).

Once we started to discuss history and he told me his history I realized that as a great great great grandson of A.J. Sowell ( Amazon.com: Texas Indian Fighters (9780938349051): A. J. Sowell: Books ) my grandfathers had been fighting to the death with his grandfathers barely over 100 years ago. Now here we are sharing some chicken and fries in sunny south Texas happy as you please.

Of course, the sad part is that his culture was basically destroyed, but still it was cool to think of how different things are now and how we were just two brothers kicking back and enjoying a snack together.

Originally Posted by MontanaGuy

What concerns me the most is that our ability to kill people to expand political and military power might be more powerful than our positive qualities. It would be very interesting to see what the fate of mankind will be in say a thousand years. I'm hoping our positive qualities will win in the end.

It's dang scary and in fact a bit amazing that we are still here. You remember the "duck and cover" drills in the 60s?

I'm confident that there will be peace in every quarter of the earth one day. To bad I may not be here to see it but holding my 5 week old grandson this morning I was, let's say, nervously confident and optimistic about his future.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes

I believe it is ignorance that kills people, usually in the forms of bigotry and/or greed.

Yes, and I don't want to minimize the role which religious fundamentalism plays in fueling that ignorance. It's clearly a big part of the problem.