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I've been reading some posts involving the violence between two different religions. And then I recalled the fact that Stalin, a dictator that ordered the death of millions, was an atheist.
Now that I think about it, people who are sure about whether or not a supernatural being or beings exist are violent people, and agnostics are the ones that truly prescribe to the non-religion of peace....
...With that said, were there any agnostics that ordered the deaths of millions?
Since, strictly speaking, we are all agnostics, I am sure that some must have.
No..I know what you are getting at. It is this far -from residual Bad Press atheism has which effectively argues that, without belief in Jesus-god (1) people have no moral sense and so can become Stalin, Pol Pots and Hitlers. References to the crusades, Inquisition, Conquistadores, Witchburnings and Slavery and KKK are brushed aside as old history, not real Christians, that was People, not the Church and many Christians were Emancipationists.
By agnostics I guess you mean a person who doesn't really believe in all that religious stuff but hasn't gone as far as flat god -denialist atheism with all the resultant running amok with a chainsaw, raping, looting, bombing, raping, barbecueing babies, raping, organizing zombie Jesus marches, raping, pillaging, raping and raping. I can't remember the last time I barbecued a baby.
The answer really is that the excesses of Stalin and Pol Pot (who were heads of a movement that would not tolerate any other god but the state) and those of Hitler (who believed in God but would not tolerate any authority but his own - which is why Communists, Jews and Christians alike ended up in the camps) were down to a state - personal cult of authority and not to atheism per se.
Having said this, you are not wrong. In fact, you are bang on the money. Agnosticism in the sense of not knowing whether there is a god or not and thus not being dogmatic and self -righteous about one's religious beliefs may well be the true religion of peace.
If you get a Texan and an Arab who are really not sure whether to believe in their tribal gods or not, what are they going to fight about?
True, militant atheists are somewhat off to the stringent side (2), but I believe and am advocating only the removal of religious doctrine as an influence on society, the perfectly reasonable removal of Bibles to the 'mythology' section and a quite harmless turning of all religious buildings into libraries, blocks of flats or wine bars.
(1) belief in non -Jesus Gods leads to suicide bombings, so they are (almost) as bad as atheists -in the Christian view.
(2) whether that is to the Right or Left depend rather from which side you are looking.
Is agnosticism a religion? Or are you addressing the organization of agnostics to obtain peace? Some agnostics are attached to some sort of god or not, agnostic views vary don't they?
"Now that I think about it, people who are sure about whether or not a supernatural being or beings exist are violent people"
That's a pretty judge mental statement for an agnostic claiming peace.
IMO, peoples beliefs don't have a lot to do with being a decent person. If they did we would have to blame all of todays crimes on the beliefs of each individual who commits them. The only atrocities you can blame on a believer are those committed with god's authority. Someone on a mission for God, or a creator, i.e. suicide bomber, killing abortionist, the large amount of general crimes are done by people suffering from mental illness, poor conditions, etc. Something is off regardless of belief.
Rarely do people commit crimes based on belief, they just happen to have a belief or lack of as well.
Same holds true for an atheist, imo, who simply doesn't hold faith on an idea that can only be imagined to hold truth. Truth isn't subjective to what might be, could one day be, that's opinion. Atheists I know fantasize and have vivid imagination, they simply don't subject others to claim possibility from it. You are free to do that on your own. I imagine gods, aliens sometimes but I realize this as my imagination not real possibility/probability. It has nothing to do with peace, nor would a lack of it.
I'm not sure the criminal mind set would be changed by an agnostic belief, since as an atheist, I believe most criminal minds stem from mental illness not evil, or bad people. So for me, Agnostics are still subject to mental illnesses, we are mass produced and the odds are clear, they have been proven. Unless agnostics are free from mental illness, bad conditions, I'm not sure peace would result.
Agnostics missioning might only save a few and I believe leading to world peace with this idea might backfire.
Most atheists argument isn't that dogma makes people insane it's the fact that it doesn't change the insane. God isn't a cure for someone who is potentially explosive, criminal or lacks a peaceful mindset. That's the danger, IMO. The reformed Christian/Muslim rapest, murderer, won't be saved/cleansed by belief in God. A doctor should still be sought. I think I'd apply this to an Agnostic as well. Agnosticism won't cure the criminal mind, IMO. A doctor should still be sought regardless of belief.
I think seeking peace is nice but I would say an attention to better mental health and living conditions might be of more aid in this quest than becoming a world full of the agnostic. IMO, of course.
Last edited by PoppySead; 04-19-2013 at 09:41 AM..
People are people and participate in the human condition no matter to what extent they pretend to be above it all or what belief-system they attempt to superimpose upon it. As such, some people are destructive to self and others, some not; some are controlling, some not; some are kind and gentle, some not; some are sociopaths, some not. You can find horribly spiteful, hateful atheists, and atheists who are paragons of virtue. Same goes for agnostics and various religious folk.
The basic fallacy of theism is that theism somehow produces, on average, better, kinder, wiser people with better ethical and moral underpinnings. I would love to see statistical proof of this that is well documented, objective, and shows significant differences or even differences outside the margin of error.
Alas, such a study would be useless even if done right, unless the definition of the subjective things being analyzed (kinder, wiser, more ethical or moral) were clearly defined and the methodology for evaluating them were very transparent and reproducible.
I am not holding my breath.
So I'm reduced to my own subjective observations. I see both nice guys and complete fwads in places of civic leadership, some of whom are overtly religious and some of whom are not. Historically I see evil dictators who use religion as an excuse to subjugate others, and some who don't bother with that, and yet others that build the equivalent of cult worship around themselves or their families (e.g. North Korea).
When it comes to a true sociopath, I'm not sure they think much about religious or philosophical (un)beliefs, they will opportunistically use common religious or philosophical beliefs in the general populace but you can't really say this means they believe any of it themselves. Did Stalin for example personally care about the Russian Orthodox church because of his (dis)agreement with their beliefs? I very much doubt it. It was strictly a matter of whether or not they were a support or a threat to his power, whether they could be co-opted and used to his own ends, etc. Did he want an atheistic society because he felt that was best and most accurate as a worldview, or because he saw theism as a threat to his hegemony? I would say the latter. He was no more interested in what god(s) might think than in what other people might think. It was just, you're for me or against me. Fundamentalist types project their cosmology on this and make the leap from that to "he's a minion of Satan and it is we who are the only real opposition to him" but that is just an inflation.
Athiest/Agnostics are regular people who simply suspend belief in the supernatural until evidence suggests it's true. There is no religion in it. Furthermore, nothing else, apparently derives from it. It's simply a non-belief.
You could say though, Atheist/Agnostics come in all shapes and sizes. There will be peace-loving, philanthropic atheists. There will be narcissistic psychopathic atheists. Their will be every kind of atheist in between.
Just like in religion, any zealot can seize a belief and bend it to their own will.
Athiest/Agnostics are regular people who simply suspend belief in the supernatural until evidence suggests it's true. There is no religion in it. Furthermore, nothing else, apparently derives from it. It's simply a non-belief.
...
Just like in religion, any zealot can seize a belief and bend it to their own will.
Except that it's much harder to bend a non-belief to your will because it doesn't provide you with any specific ideology to work with. You don't get very far in life defining yourself only by what you don't believe. Once newly-minted atheists get over themselves, they realize that they have to figure out what they DO believe, and that all the work of figuring that out is on them.
The next big step is letting go of things you can't define or control and focus on what is knowable and doable. Much of religion is an inflation involving the idea that you can accurately describe and manipulate fate itself, because it's all about you having a central role in a drama tailored for you. When you realize you're not "all that", it should produce humility, make your feel real common cause with your fellow humans, and move you to be empathetic, inclusive, and helpful in the world. Until that happens you haven't really let the religious memes go, you are keeping them alive by fighting them and giving them something to fight.
Except that it's much harder to bend a non-belief to your will because it doesn't provide you with any specific ideology to work with. You don't get very far in life defining yourself only by what you don't believe. Once newly-minted atheists get over themselves, they realize that they have to figure out what they DO believe, and that all the work of figuring that out is on them.
The next big step is letting go of things you can't define or control and focus on what is knowable and doable. Much of religion is an inflation involving the idea that you can accurately describe and manipulate fate itself, because it's all about you having a central role in a drama tailored for you. When you realize you're not "all that", it should produce humility, make your feel real common cause with your fellow humans, and move you to be empathetic, inclusive, and helpful in the world. Until that happens you haven't really let the religious memes go, you are keeping them alive by fighting them and giving them something to fight.
All good points.
It's a bit of reach at this time, but ideologies could be fabricated/manipulated falsely in the name of atheism the same way charismatic religious zealots steal away religion from the moderates, I think.
I'm thinking of a hyptothetical would-be atheist with influence and power who might wish to, say, exterminate people of religion, or to 'cleanse' the human gene pool in some sort of maniacal twist on Darwinian Selection because they are, say, 'inferior to atheists.'
We know, for example, that at least some good German people without religious motives, on orders, executed Jews in WWII.
Can we say, without a doubt, that one could not manufacture an ideology from atheism? And can we say without a doubt that some atheists would not carry out, on orders, such executions?
There are going to be athiests who are absolutely psychotic and it will have nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with, say, power and/or money.
I feel this way about people like bin Laden. He bent religion to his will, and the will of others, to, among other things, gain power.
It's a bit of reach at this time, but ideologies could be fabricated/manipulated falsely in the name of atheism the same way charismatic religious zealots steal away religion from the moderates, I think.
Yes, it's possible. Although theists are often way too eager to equate atheism with evil and then claim that, e.g., Hitler was an atheist when in fact he was an avowed Christian who stated in writing he was doing God's work. On the other hand, Stalin was in fact an atheist and actively persecuted believers as you suggest, and had an explicit political agenda of wiping religion out. His motivations however were political, not metaphysical, and as you point out, power corrupts believers and unbelievers alike. I wonder if history has recorded Stalin's thoughts about atheism's existential implications. My guess is that to the extent he even thought about them, he totally missed the point.
Heck, if theists can claim Hitler wasn't Christian because Christianity doesn't teach genocide, atheists can claim Stalin wasn't "a true atheist" because atheism doesn't teach genocide either (or anything else).
Atheism doesn't "teach" anything because it's not an organization with a dogma, it says nothing other than the person disbelieves in deities. Atheists believe a wide variety of things aside from that, including some form of afterlife, healing crystals, various other forms of woo, etc. -- so long as they don't require a god to explain and animate them. So it is meaningless to blame Stalin's ruthless cruelties on atheism because there is no fixed philosophy behind them. All atheists are not communists or oligarchs and some theists ARE communists or oligarchs. Ultimately we need to judge people not by what they say but by what they do.
All good points.
It's a bit of reach at this time, but ideologies could be fabricated/manipulated falsely in the name of atheism the same way charismatic religious zealots steal away religion from the moderates, I think.
I'm thinking of a hyptothetical would-be atheist with influence and power who might wish to, say, exterminate people of religion, or to 'cleanse' the human gene pool in some sort of maniacal twist on Darwinian Selection because they are, say, 'inferior to atheists.'
We know, for example, that at least some good German people without religious motives, on orders, executed Jews in WWII.
Can we say, without a doubt, that one could not manufacture an ideology from atheism? And can we say without a doubt that some atheists would not carry out, on orders, such executions?
There are going to be athiests who are absolutely psychotic and it will have nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with, say, power and/or money.
I feel this way about people like bin Laden. He bent religion to his will, and the will of others, to, among other things, gain power.
That is perfectly true. That is why just abandoning belief in the claims of religion is not good enough. We could probably bump along with the generally secular system we have now and might even find ourselves better off without the religious who feel that it is God's will that they impose their beliefs on everyone else, but I really think that we need to consciously embrace rationalist thinking instead of just being driven about like a lot of meat puppets by our evolved instincts - good or bad.
We need to understand ourselves and what makes us tick a lot better. Then hopefully there will be less chance of there ever popping up (or popping up again, if you see Stalin and Pol Pot as examples of such) some destiny -driven dictator using atheism as a dogma to drive a murderous campaign of conquest.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-26-2013 at 08:06 AM..
Reason: grammatical tinquering
well its the religion of the former soviet union. i really dont think i could call it the religion of peace.
they enslaved everyone they ever met.
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