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After reading through these forums and through my own experience I have come to realize most of the violent people in the world are violent in defense of their beliefs. Beliefs always start out well, ussually from a good idea. But when the idea becomes a belief it eventually hast to be defended. To believe in something you must be able to not believe, and this creates conflict. But Atheists have no belief, you cannot believe in atheism, you are just athiest (without belief). Now try and imagine an atheist country.
An Atheist country would develop a set of laws and government similar to America (which is no surprise as many of the founding fathers were closet atheists if not open ones). The declaration of independence never mentions God or any religion, it holds these truths to be "self evident" as in we do not need a god to come up with these moral ideas. So after we have a country and a government it must be defended.
Now I am not saying atheists would never be violent, but it would only be in defense. An atheist would have no reason to seek out someone and fight them, it would stand to reason that atheists would tend to be isolationist. And as such they would probably be among the more peaceful countries in the world. Without a belief in an afterlife or a god you will find its hard to get people to join a military unless it is to defend themselves and those around them.
Now obviously this is just a flight of fancy but I was curious if anyone could point out some flaws in my logic.
Let us take the "best" case scenario and assume you have made things homogenous. Assume all religions are eliminated and everyone is an atheist, or all atheists/agnostics etc are somehow replaced by 1 religion - even then, there would still be many reasons for people to fight. Example reasons include race, political affiliation, invading beause of oil, etc etc. Religion is one - but not the only reason people fight. Humans are not perfect & are products of a real unintelligent design, if there ever was a "design".
Stalin did a pretty good job at eliminating religion and that turned out pretty well with a small exception, the 30+ million people he killed in the "purges". Hitler did a pretty good job, along with Mao and Pol Pot and countless others.
The belief in something greater than oneself is humbling and requires strength, which none of these people had. Religion is not and never has been a negative force in society. All of the major monotheistic religions when followed offer positives to civilizations and the practitioners.
Stalin did a pretty good job at eliminating religion and that turned out pretty well with a small exception, the 30+ million people he killed in the "purges". Hitler did a pretty good job, along with Mao and Pol Pot and countless others.
I see that you're fairly new here. This topic has come up several times and as myself and others have pointed out religion or lack of religion played no part whatsoever in any of these events. Stalin was a very paranoid individual whose goal in life was to maintain his power. He even killed huge numbers of people who actually supported him if he had the slightest inclination to believe that they might oppose him. Hitler was not an atheist, he was a sociopath, who felt no empathy for his victims despite his religious beliefs.
The point I'm trying to make is that the individuals you've named were seeking to consolidate their personal power by whatever ruthless means was required and this is all about politics and control and has nothing to do with atheism.
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The belief in something greater than oneself is humbling and requires strength, which none of these people had..
Quite the opposite. Almost all religious people I know were born into their religion. It takes much more guts and thought to chose something different and be in a small minority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyG
Religion is not and never has been a negative force in society. All of the major monotheistic religions when followed offer positives to civilizations and the practitioners.
The belief in something greater than oneself is humbling and requires strength...
Yes, I've noticed the humility in those who believe. Right. And "strength"? Hardly. Easy answers and an afterlife. Just do as we say and all will be revealed to you after you die.
Now obviously this is just a flight of fancy but I was curious if anyone could point out some flaws in my logic.
The only flaw I see, and it's a rather large one I suppose, is your incorrect definition of atheism. Atheists do not believe in deities, that's all. They can still believe all kinds of other nonsense.
well, we atheists don't murder in the name of some deity, we don't 'play god' so I think if you remove the reason/ the crutch, lots of the killing of innocents would stop...serial killers are usually very religious, in that they follow satan or god or the neighbor's dog who has powers unknown to anyone else but the killer...
Atheists mostly are thinkers, lovers of life more than fighters!
If all the religion could be wiped off the earth (miraculously!), you'd see most of the arguments would be gone, most athrocities are about religious views..look at the honor killings in the Muslim world...how a brother or father kills their child for being with someone from the wrong branch of the religion...what nonsence is that? Can any Muslim actually justify that? unbelievable...
The only flaw I see, and it's a rather large one I suppose, is your incorrect definition of atheism. Atheists do not believe in deities, that's all. They can still believe all kinds of other nonsense.
That's a very good point. Much as I would love to be able to say that atheism would rid the world of hatred, bigotry and intolerance, I can't.
People is people and we have our evilution - given instincts. It is valid to point out that Stalin and Pol pot - and Lenin, too, not to mention a certain Mr. Schickelgruber, whether they had any religious beliefs or not, certainly all had an unscientific and very dogmatic Faith in their particular 'Ism'.
In an atheist world, I can't guarantee that we wouldn't have the same distrusts, paranoid fears and jealousies. In a nice tolerant atheist world where everyone can have their religion if they want but no-one dominates another, we'd maybe at least be rid of some of them. I just can't give guarantee that nice tolerant atheists wouldn't be replaced by those nasty intolerant ones who would get the votes by claiming that the tolerant ones are soft on superstition ...why, they may be secret theists..!
Sounds wonderful BUT unfortunately total Utopia as Atheists are like all other human beings simply human with deep flaws and as much potential for harming others and evil as anyone else.
Human Nature is what stands in the way of Peace and a world where we can all put our differences aside and embrace one another as the brothers we are.
Even leaving aside fundamentalist beliefs in a supernatural being , we as humans still are all touched by greed, intolerance, hatred, lust and prejudice even without the help of hateful religion.
Atheism only means a lack of belief in a deity. It sadly does not mean we all behave rationally and with empathy towards others...
The concept of an Atheist world rid of evil sounds lovely and fabulous but I am afraid I am far too cynical to believe in such a possibility.
I don't even believe fundamentalists religious people commit crime because of Religion but instead use their Religion as a useful and convenient excuse to commit atrocities with a clear mind. Religion per se is not what kills people, to paraphrase another saying, people kill people.
We must ALL take responsibilites for our actions. We ALL have the power to behave well but chose not to.
Selfishness and our own vanities, fears and greed come up to the surface and we use every excuse to behave like Barbarians.
Humans have been adept as twisting their own beliefs to enable the worst of horrors, be it in a Religious or Atheist way since... forever. They even wrote sacred texts they could use to exploit their own desires and weaknesses and making the commiting of terrible crimes seem "acceptable" to themselves and their kinds.
As an Atheist I am only too aware that none of us can really be excluded from the realm of the "wicked". I wish it were not so but...
Bigotry, intolerance, violence and cruelty are sadly not a monopoly of the religious...
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And "strength"? Hardly. Easy answers and an afterlife. Just do as we say and all will be revealed to you after you die.
