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I was a little surprised to learn that atheists and agnostics are more likely to oppose the death penalty than religious people like me who opposes the death penalty.
I was thinking it might be the opposite. I understand that everyone has unique religious views, but here is my thinking.
#1 Killing a person takes it out of God's hands. The execution also means that that person has less time to make amends and "get right with God" before going to judgement day or whatever the belief of purgatory, hell, heaven, etc...
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation. This brings me to my next point.
#3 Reformation. Why do we punish people?
Revenge? That seems a bit silly and base level cave man. You did something bad so now something bad has to happen to you for satisfaction of others.
Preventative? People will do bad things unless they see consequences happening to those who wrong others. Perhaps some merit here, but I think most murders would happen whether or not there was a death penalty as they are done by either temporarily inflamed/insane people or people who don't have a good moral compass to begin with.
Reformation? It seems like the goal of society should be to reform others for the better. Rehabilitate them into better people. Norway places an emphasis on reformation and they have lower crime rates.
I've talked to former criminals who have been reformed by finding Jesus and/or the local "Exit Program" which helps with jobs and choices for those getting out of jail.
The death penalty is often a safety issue in regards of so they can't kill again, but if they are locked up for life and can't be reformed with in the confines of securing them away where they can't harm that also solves that issue.
#4 Hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not murder" is what we are commanded to not do. The death certificate of a person who has been executed reads "homicide" or in other terms intentional murder. If murdering is wrong, why would we murder murderers?
#5 Think of the emotional strain on those who must partake on the execution process and their lifetime of stress and strain having to participate in killing people for the government.
#6 Many religious people like me, consider myself to be pro-life. I have a hard time being pro-life if I support death in this instance.
#7 The death penalty is often more expensive because of all of the legal appeals and time that it takes. We have a lot of government debt.
What are all of your thoughts?
I realize there are a variety of unique and valid beliefs regardless of what your religious beliefs are or aren't.
Religions encourage being good. But I think they also do not support tossing the "innocent" to the proverbial wolf pack.
Tolerance of predators is unmerciful to their next victim.
Killing in self-defense is an affirmative defense to the charge of murder.
Having governments execute convicted murderers is one way to avoid vendettas and blood feuds.
. . .
However, using evil to defeat evil only makes evil the victor.
Which raises the question : is capital punishment an evil, though necessary, or is it warranted, as a deterrent to others?
And by extension, does that make all war evil, even if in self-defense?
If the "evil" victors build a society that is abhorrent to religions, isn't that contrary to logic for religions to tolerate them?
. . .
As to the argument that exile via life imprisonment is more humane, I disagree. In many instances, it's psychological torture, and often physical torture, inflicted by other inmates (or guards). Furthermore, it puts the society on the hook for the cost to guard and support the inmate.
. . .
It's not uncommon for felons to seek "suicide by cop" rather than go back to prison.
. . .
There is no easy answer, especially if criminals can overwhelm the resources of the justice system.
In some respects, the prevalence of capital punishment in the past, for crimes not involving murder, indicated an economical approach to justice. Of course, executing innocent people is abominable.
. . .
Unfortunately, evil flourishes when good men do nothing. And when evil infiltrates government, it gets out of control and perverted. Such governments cease protecting the people from predators, but prosecute those victims who dared to fight back against predators.
God grants the government the power to rule, which includes capital punishment. (Rom 13:1-4).
It's really that simple. It's not about emotional responses to a crime, or to get revenge. It's justice. That's it. If a crime is heinous enough, the deserved punishment is execution.
I was a little surprised to learn that atheists and agnostics are more likely to oppose the death penalty than religious people like me who opposes the death penalty.
I was thinking it might be the opposite. I understand that everyone has unique religious views, but here is my thinking.
#1 Killing a person takes it out of God's hands. The execution also means that that person has less time to make amends and "get right with God" before going to judgement day or whatever the belief of purgatory, hell, heaven, etc...
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation. This brings me to my next point.
#3 Reformation. Why do we punish people?
Revenge? That seems a bit silly and base level cave man. You did something bad so now something bad has to happen to you for satisfaction of others.
Preventative? People will do bad things unless they see consequences happening to those who wrong others. Perhaps some merit here, but I think most murders would happen whether or not there was a death penalty as they are done by either temporarily inflamed/insane people or people who don't have a good moral compass to begin with.
Reformation? It seems like the goal of society should be to reform others for the better. Rehabilitate them into better people. Norway places an emphasis on reformation and they have lower crime rates.
I've talked to former criminals who have been reformed by finding Jesus and/or the local "Exit Program" which helps with jobs and choices for those getting out of jail.
The death penalty is often a safety issue in regards of so they can't kill again, but if they are locked up for life and can't be reformed with in the confines of securing them away where they can't harm that also solves that issue.
#4 Hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not murder" is what we are commanded to not do. The death certificate of a person who has been executed reads "homicide" or in other terms intentional murder. If murdering is wrong, why would we murder murderers?
#5 Think of the emotional strain on those who must partake on the execution process and their lifetime of stress and strain having to participate in killing people for the government.
#6 Many religious people like me, consider myself to be pro-life. I have a hard time being pro-life if I support death in this instance.
#7 The death penalty is often more expensive because of all of the legal appeals and time that it takes. We have a lot of government debt.
What are all of your thoughts?
I realize there are a variety of unique and valid beliefs regardless of what your religious beliefs are or aren't.
The death penalty is barbaric. It is a shame that when most advanced countries have done away with this barbarism, in the US we find new ways to legally kill people. When an innocent person, wrongfully charged with crime and killed by the govt. who will pay for his life? The judge, the jury, the state? Who will bring him back to life?
While I believe that some people deserve to die for their crimes, the death penalty has proven far more trouble than its worth. It’s not an effective deterrent, it can’t be applied fairly, and it costs far more in court and other governmental resources, with the inherently long and drawn-out appeals process, than to simply sentence someone to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
I was a little surprised to learn that atheists and agnostics are more likely to oppose the death penalty than religious people like me who opposes the death penalty.
I was thinking it might be the opposite. I understand that everyone has unique religious views, but here is my thinking.
#1 Killing a person takes it out of God's hands. The execution also means that that person has less time to make amends and "get right with God" before going to judgement day or whatever the belief of purgatory, hell, heaven, etc...
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation. This brings me to my next point.
#3 Reformation. Why do we punish people?
Revenge? That seems a bit silly and base level cave man. You did something bad so now something bad has to happen to you for satisfaction of others.
Preventative? People will do bad things unless they see consequences happening to those who wrong others. Perhaps some merit here, but I think most murders would happen whether or not there was a death penalty as they are done by either temporarily inflamed/insane people or people who don't have a good moral compass to begin with.
Reformation? It seems like the goal of society should be to reform others for the better. Rehabilitate them into better people. Norway places an emphasis on reformation and they have lower crime rates.
I've talked to former criminals who have been reformed by finding Jesus and/or the local "Exit Program" which helps with jobs and choices for those getting out of jail.
The death penalty is often a safety issue in regards of so they can't kill again, but if they are locked up for life and can't be reformed with in the confines of securing them away where they can't harm that also solves that issue.
#4 Hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not murder" is what we are commanded to not do. The death certificate of a person who has been executed reads "homicide" or in other terms intentional murder. If murdering is wrong, why would we murder murderers?
#5 Think of the emotional strain on those who must partake on the execution process and their lifetime of stress and strain having to participate in killing people for the government.
#6 Many religious people like me, consider myself to be pro-life. I have a hard time being pro-life if I support death in this instance.
#7 The death penalty is often more expensive because of all of the legal appeals and time that it takes. We have a lot of government debt.
What are all of your thoughts?
I realize there are a variety of unique and valid beliefs regardless of what your religious beliefs are or aren't.
I am not religious but I agree with you. You make good points and I am always confused by religious people (specifically of the judaic religions) who are for the death penalty. There are a lot of cherry pickers out there using their holy books to justify themselves and it ends up being chaos, especiallly when the cherry picking is fragments of sentences that mean the opposite of what they want in context of the complete sentence.
I have never fully settled the question of the death penalty in my own mind. Intellectually, I'm against the death penalty and think it's immoral. BUT, every once in a while a person will commit a crime or crimes so heinous that I have to stop and say to myself, "Gee, now here's a case where I think the death penalty is deserved".
Your point #1 is interesting. Never thought of that. But I think it goes to an important issue -- that a lot of people, including a lot of religious people, are damned mean when it comes right down to it. I see a lot of that over in the education sub-forum where if a student is a problem just kick them out of school...never mind that that may ruin their lives for the rest of their lives and end up costing the American taxpayer more in the long run. As a principal, the punishment part of my discipline agenda was what I called LDA -- least drastic action -- what was the least drastic action I needed to use to solve the problem. But for many people, when it comes to crime, they want the most drastic action.
But there are an awfully lot of people out there who actually want to do what you discuss in your #3 -- they want revenge...societal revenge. They want the punishment swift (they often want it without even a trial; such as the proposed law here in Arizona that would essentially allow land owners to shoot on sight a trespasser...aimed of course at illegal immigrants). And they want the punishment to be at the max. Certainly not LDA. And, they cite the bible -- "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" (Leviticus). And in fact, they justify their cruelty by citing the CHRISTIAN bible.
So I think you can see that I am on the 'soft' side of our whole punishment mentality. And yet, someone I was close to once ended up in jail (not prison) for 3 months. But it was a 'big city' jail. I was the only person who visited him in jail once a week for 11 of those 12 weeks (which required a 160 mile round trip starting at 6 a.m.). This was a large city jail with plenty of visible security. I remember thinking, as I would walk into the visitor's center for the jail each week, that I never thought I would be visiting a person in jail. That I just didn't know people who could end up in jail. Oh well. But what impressed me -- in a bad way -- were some of the prisoners I saw who...let's just say...you wouldn't want to meet on a dark street some night...not to mention some of the people who were visiting them. You would be very afraid. It was an eye-opener. And when this person got out of jail I asked him, "What was it like in jail?" "You don't want to know", and he refused to even discuss it.
I guess, in a way, that I'm technically undecided about how we punish law breakers. I'm glad I still have to think about it. I'm glad I'm not one of these hardened religionists who want to kill every hardened law breaker. To me there's not much difference in character between the two.
I was a little surprised to learn that atheists and agnostics are more likely to oppose the death penalty than religious people like me who opposes the death penalty.
I was thinking it might be the opposite. I understand that everyone has unique religious views, but here is my thinking.
#1 Killing a person takes it out of God's hands. The execution also means that that person has less time to make amends and "get right with God" before going to judgement day or whatever the belief of purgatory, hell, heaven, etc...
Excellent point. I can't argue against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#2 Although the Old Testament does speak of executions, the New Testament or new covenant or contract has people bring a lady to be stoned to death and Jesus says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." When the lady is spared Jesus tells the lady to go sin no more, which is reformation. This brings me to my next point.
Another terrific point that I have to agree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#3 Reformation. Why do we punish people?
Revenge? That seems a bit silly and base level cave man. You did something bad so now something bad has to happen to you for satisfaction of others.
Preventative? People will do bad things unless they see consequences happening to those who wrong others. Perhaps some merit here, but I think most murders would happen whether or not there was a death penalty as they are done by either temporarily inflamed/insane people or people who don't have a good moral compass to begin with.
Reformation? It seems like the goal of society should be to reform others for the better. Rehabilitate them into better people. Norway places an emphasis on reformation and they have lower crime rates.
I've talked to former criminals who have been reformed by finding Jesus and/or the local "Exit Program" which helps with jobs and choices for those getting out of jail.
The death penalty is often a safety issue in regards of so they can't kill again, but if they are locked up for life and can't be reformed with in the confines of securing them away where they can't harm that also solves that issue.
Rehabilitation fails in most cases. The recidivism rate is high and always has been. I see the Death Penalty having two purposes. First and foremost, it prevents a heinous criminal from preying on additional victims. Dead men can't do harm. Second, it does work as a deterrent for some, but only if the execution comes swiftly. There is no deterrent in a 30-year appeals process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#4 Hypocrisy. "Thou shalt not murder" is what we are commanded to not do. The death certificate of a person who has been executed reads "homicide" or in other terms intentional murder. If murdering is wrong, why would we murder murderers?
Execution is not murder, any more than when a soldier kills an enemy. People don't execute criminals. The STATE executes criminals. The STATE hires people to perform the execution, but it is not like they hand a criminal off to Joe Blow and leave it to him to live or die. The STATE determines if a person should receive the Death Penalty and then follows through with the execution.
That is not murder. Christ was not murdered by some random person. He was executed by Pontius Pilate, who sentenced him to death. The Roman STATE executed Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#5 Think of the emotional strain on those who must partake on the execution process and their lifetime of stress and strain having to participate in killing people for the government.
You are assuming this. I know people who feel that the Death Penalty is just, and would carry out multiple executions without blinking. Their only emotional strain would be for the dead victim or victims who suffered and died at the hand of the sentenced convict. I couldn't do it, but I know people who could do it without a second though that it was right and just.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#6 Many religious people like me, consider myself to be pro-life. I have a hard time being pro-life if I support death in this instance.
Another great point. If you believe in life then you believe in life. Hard to argue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker
#7 The death penalty is often more expensive because of all of the legal appeals and time that it takes. We have a lot of government debt.
What are all of your thoughts?
I realize there are a variety of unique and valid beliefs regardless of what your religious beliefs are or aren't.
This last point is just a modern perversion of the justice system, which has been contorted and degraded in so many other ways. The law has been tortured so as to intentionally delay Capital executions for as long as possible. This issue could be solved overnight. It is a minor detail, not a reason against Capital punishment. It is a distortion. To the extent that it is true, it is another argument against sentencing someone to death these days.
You bring up many excellent points and I would add another. Allowing heinous murderers to live is more in line with "turn the other cheek".
You have brought up a lot of amazing points that are hard to argue. Unfortunately, the State is not a religious body. We have separation of church and State so the State is not bound by the bible, but I do understand your point as regards why more Christians do not vote to ban Capital Punishment.
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