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This may be a good example of the difficulty we sometimes experience with individual and doctrinal jargon trying to communicate common truths.
I believe more often then not, we would all agree more often if we could just listen, and try to find a language we can understand.
Yes, I agree. Words get in the way of understanding. This is one reason why Divinity and Spirituality cannot be completely communicated with words because they are inadequate, they misrepresent, and cause hurdles rather than clarity. It is understood only through inquiry, contemplation, and silence.
True forgiveness is having compassion towards the one who harmed you and seeing the "image of God" within that person, and truly forgiving. For some cases, this can be an extraordinary feat that showcases the truth of "God IS love."
And speaking of this, anyway, how would God wanting you to forgive be "harmful"?
If God wants you to have love in your heart, would you also see that as being harmful? Why, would something GOOD that God wants for you, be harmful? We're not talking about God forcing anything on you.
Try telling the quoted above to the child who was raped and abused, the example that you brought up several post ago and asked if that is karma that caused her suffering. The suffering was caused by the rapist and abuser, not karma. Sometimes it happens repeatedly.
So would you ask her to forgive this rapist abuser and see the image of God within the rapist abuser, because that is what God wants her to do? What effect do you think it would have on her? Does it matter? Is that compassionate?
I think the effect would be to nullify her personhood. It tells her that forgiving her abuser is more important to her well being, more important than being heard, being comforted, and finding ways to heal the abuse, more important because God wants her to forgive the rapist. What happens if she cannot? Would God be displeased? Would he no longer love her? What does it do to a child's trust in adults? in her faith in humanity?
You should know that each of us have the spirit of God, Divinity, within us. It guides us to do the right thing and to express humanity, compassion, comfort, and healing. When that fails, as it has in the rapist abuser,'s case, it is because his ego got the best of him, his needs and desire overpowered his senses, and he no longer saw Divinity in the child nor in him, all he saw was her tiny body and all he was was an organ in need of sex. He ignored the Divinity within him. He needs to do penance and ask forgiveness from God. The child merely needs to be comforted and helped to heal, not be told that God wants her to forgive. There is nothing for her to forgive.
I I've seen cases where a person has murdered someone's child in cold blood. The mother of the murdered went on to forgive their child's murderer, and even helped them later in life. It's an extraordinary feat, (in my eyes) that showcases the love of God. What I mean by that, is it shows the absolute power of LOVE. THAT is what love can do. Destroy darkness. By not being overcome with evil, but overcoming evil with good. I believe that God IS love. And that love is the most powerful thing in existence. That is my personal belief. I don't know many who could do it, (mother forgiving child's murderer) and those who have are an absolute inspiration, and to me, proves that extraordinarypower of love.
Here is a link to what is known as Restorative Justice.
Quote:
Victims have a self-interest in forgiving the offender, since forgiveness means to give up moral resentment of the person who has done the wrong. Moral resentment harbored by the victim fosters internal tension, anger, and diversion from positive and uplifting thoughts and feelings. Forgiveness is also important because it confirms to victims that they too can receive forgiveness from those they have wronged. If the victim's forgiveness is to have meaning for the offender, however, the offender faces three tasks: a repudiation of the wrong and an acceptance of the moral judgment that it justified; the performance of acts that take responsibility for the unfair costs that arose from the wrong that others were forced to bear; and a willingness to take strategic action that will restore others' confidence that the wrong will not be repeated.
It is a two way street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Perhaps there is no "karma". There are actions and consequences. Some can be extremely far reaching and go on for generations, meaning, one act of non-love can echo for a long time in the future through generations. But the same for an act of love. We are responsible for ourselves, not for the actions of others. And I do not believe any of us are born into our lives via "karma". Meaning we somehow got what we deserve as far as where or to whom, and to what circumstances we were born. We are each individual human beings who make up the whole of humanity. Each life lived has meaning, and will contribute to the overall learning of the lesson we are here to learn. Love vs non-love. Light vs dark. Knowledge vs ignorance. Each life lived, lived only once can accomplish this. I don't believe this is a selfish, individual thing, I think we are in this together, whether we like it or not. What affects one, affects us all, in reality.
I am not sure you have understood what karma is, but that is not important. I agree with the above bolded.
Try telling the quoted above to the child who was raped and abused, the example that you brought up several post ago and asked if that is karma that caused her suffering. The suffering was caused by the rapist and abuser, not karma. Sometimes it happens repeatedly.
So would you ask her to forgive this rapist abuser and see the image of God within the rapist abuser, because that is what God wants her to do? What effect do you think it would have on her? Does it matter? Is that compassionate?
I think the effect would be to nullify her personhood. It tells her that forgiving her abuser is more important to her well being, more important than being heard, being comforted, and finding ways to heal the abuse, more important because God wants her to forgive the rapist. What happens if she cannot? Would God be displeased? Would he no longer love her? What does it do to a child's trust in adults? in her faith in humanity?
You should know that each of us have the spirit of God, Divinity, within us. It guides us to do the right thing and to express humanity, compassion, comfort, and healing. When that fails, as it has in the rapist abuser,'s case, it is because his ego got the best of him, his needs and desire overpowered his senses, and he no longer saw Divinity in the child nor in him, all he saw was her tiny body and all he was was an organ in need of sex. He ignored the Divinity within him. He needs to do penance and ask forgiveness from God. The child merely needs to be comforted and helped to heal, not be told that God wants her to forgive. There is nothing for her to forgive.
Ok, you, for whatever reason, have misconstrued my views so much that they they have become completely unrecognizable.
To the BOLD: maybe you should take these things up with someone who ACTUALLY believes these things, because I do not. Nothing that you have implied or tried to stick to me, is part of my belief system. I've already explained my views on forgiveness. Go back and re-read my posts and perhaps you will see that you've completely misunderstood what I said.
The example of the child was brought up because Miss Hepburn posted "All is illusion, all is right with the world". It wasn't even about forgiveness at that point, it was solely a response to her words. I was trying to get clarification.
Then, you asking me whether the child should forgive his abuser, all I said was that would be an extraordinary feat. (Not the CHILD, as a child, but once the child became an ADULT, I honestly did not think I had to point that out, but perhaps I did, and that I will admit is purely my fault in not clarifying. AS AN ADULT, yes it would be an extraordinary feat for that person to be able to eventually forgive his abuser. Just like it was when that mother forgave her child's murderer. I 100% was not talking about the CHILD , but rather, later in life, as an adult.)
Now, with that said, let's get one thing straight. NO! I do NOT think that God expects a child to forgive the person who abused him! Nor do I think any of the other terrible things you tried to attach to me, such as "forgiving the abuser is more important than the child's well-being, etc. etc."
Why do you seem to want to see some sort of religious tyranny in what I'm saying? Or are you really honestly misunderstanding my words? Discussion forums can sometimes be a challenge when discussing heavy topics.
Here is a link to what is known as Restorative Justice.
Quote:
Victims have a self-interest in forgiving the offender, since forgiveness means to give up moral resentment of the person who has done the wrong. Moral resentment harbored by the victim fosters internal tension, anger, and diversion from positive and uplifting thoughts and feelings. Forgiveness is also important because it confirms to victims that they too can receive forgiveness from those they have wronged. If the victim's forgiveness is to have meaning for the offender, however, the offender faces three tasks: a repudiation of the wrong and an acceptance of the moral judgment that it justified; the performance of acts that take responsibility for the unfair costs that arose from the wrong that others were forced to bear; and a willingness to take strategic action that will restore others' confidence that the wrong will not be repeated.
To the bold: Yes, of course.
However, the offender, I'm sure you would agree, it has to be sincere and voluntary, if it is not sincere and voluntary then it means nothing to and for the offender. Going through the motions does nothing. Your heart has to be involved, your conscience must be seared. It's not about forcing anything. It has to be true and sincere. True remorse/repentance. And sometimes that means the offender forgiving someone in HIS life. Like I said, one non-loving action can echo for a long time and affect many.
To the bold: Yes, of course.
However, the offender, I'm sure you would agree, it has to be sincere and voluntary, if it is not sincere and voluntary then it means nothing to and for the offender. Going through the motions does nothing. Your heart has to be involved, your conscience must be seared. It's not about forcing anything. It has to be true and sincere. True remorse/repentance. And sometimes that means the offender forgiving someone in HIS life. Like I said, one non-loving action can echo for a long time and affect many.
I believe the quote i posted clearly states what the offender needs to do to earn forgiveness and i don’t think it can be improved upon. It is action not merely intent.
"Acting beyond the letter of the law, we ought to forgive others even if they do not ask for, or even want, our forgiveness. In fact, in the prayer text of both many Ashkenazim and Sephardim (and Chabad too) before retiring for the night, we utter a declaration forgiving anyone who has offended us."
Interesting - that's not at all how it's been framed in my Jewish learning. Forgiveness is less of the Christian context (as what I would classify how you describe) but instead teshuvah, or "repentance" or "return." Someone who has caused harm must acknowledge the wrong (verbally, not in your thoughts), apologize and ask for forgiveness, and do whatever you can to undo the damage, including giving tzedakah (charity). There is an obligation to forgive if the previously mentioned requirements are fulfilled, and if someone apologizes 3 times and is not forgiven then the person who refuses to forgive bears some of the weight of what happened.
So is forgiveness important? Yes. But not without repentance and recompense. Thank G-d.
Definitely aligns with my worldview more than blanket forgiveness, that's for sure. And it also serves as a lifelong model for how to act when I either know or learn that my words or actions have caused another harm. This difference in how Judaism treats and speaks about forgiveness and how Christianity speaks treats and speaks about forgiveness is one of my strongest reminders of why I am so grateful to have been born into a Jewish family and raised with the value of accountability to others for my actions.
Here is a link to what is known as Restorative Justice.
It is a two way street.
I am not sure you have understood what karma is, but that is not important. I agree with the above bolded.
There is little in your post to argue with and I agree the concept of karma is misunderstood, especially when it is coupled with reincarnation. As in the example of the rapist abuser as the source of the abuse, NOT any prior karma in a child''s prior life. That whole meme presents too many issues for me to accept, IMO. I do not believe ANY of us have ever lived before so we could NEVER have any pre-existing karma that is playing out in our current life.
We definitely can accumulate something akin to karma in our current life primarily based on what we are BECOMING. What we BECOME does have spiritual consequences that have nothing to do with a God forgiving us or not forgiving us. They are spiritual outcomes based on who we have BECOME, period. Obviously, God wants us to avoid any of the negative consequences and He is certainly not imposing them as some kind of punishment! Anyone who does NOT feel and act on the responsibility you describe has BECOME a person subject to negative spiritual consequences no matter if they asked God for forgiveness or not, IMO.
Interesting - that's not at all how it's been framed in my Jewish learning. Forgiveness is less of the Christian context (as what I would classify how you describe) but instead teshuvah, or "repentance" or "return." Someone who has caused harm must acknowledge the wrong (verbally, not in your thoughts), apologize and ask for forgiveness, and do whatever you can to undo the damage, including giving tzedakah (charity). There is an obligation to forgive if the previously mentioned requirements are fulfilled, and if someone apologizes 3 times and is not forgiven then the person who refuses to forgive bears some of the weight of what happened.
So is forgiveness important? Yes. But not without repentance and recompense. Thank G-d.
Definitely aligns with my worldview more than blanket forgiveness, that's for sure. And it also serves as a lifelong model for how to act when I either know or learn that my words or actions have caused another harm. This difference in how Judaism treats and speaks about forgiveness and how Christianity speaks treats and speaks about forgiveness is one of my strongest reminders of why I am so grateful to have been born into a Jewish family and raised with the value of accountability to others for my actions.
This resonates with me and it highlights what I see as a primary attraction ("tickling ears" aspect) of Christianity Placing forgiveness in the hands of God erases any responsibility to the victim(s). They just need to implore God to forgive "whatever" and all is supposedly good. That is nonsense, IMO. You can NOT escape what you have BECOME by supplication to God to avoid some believed "punishment."
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