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In Hinduism, forgiveness is one of the 6 cardinal virtues. Christianity too has cardinal virtues, but as nice as they are, they are not foundational the way forgiveness is, which is a central to Christian ethics. Still, being so important, it is central-ish.
I know the 6 qualifications that you call the 6 cardinal virtues. These are the 6 ways one qualifies herself to receive the teachings which leads to the knowledge of the Self, the Divinity within. These are not requirements. These are like tests you need to pass for the GRE if you want to go to Grad school.
So definitely not requirements but pathway to self-enlightenment one can choose to go on. Or NOT.
Among them there is no mention of forgiveness. Only God can forgive. One can always ask for forgiveness from the person one has harmed, but there is no guarantee it will be granted. It is upto the the person who did the harm to do the penance. One is moved to ask for forgiveness because she has realized what she did was wrong. It is an expression of humility and contrition. If it is genuine with no ulterior motives the harmed one may reconcile. or Not. This whole business about you MUST forgive never made any sense to me.
On the other hand for the qualifying GRE, the tests include several character development attitudes one must develop. There are nine all together because a couple of them have parts. One of them requires one to be non judgmental, have neither love nor hate in your heart, be in balance. Don't seek revenge. Do the right thing, and know what the right thing is.
Exactly. Only God forgives and can intercede in the force of karma. But we are always enabled to express compassion and to act selflessly. Altruism is another way of looking at forgiveness.
As Christian, I share your view. I assume we're talking about moral judgement. Not does my shirt match my pants.
We Christians are instructed to forgive those who trespass against US.
I cancel whatever indebtedness I believe or perceive is due to ME.
I'm unqualified to make a moral judgement of another's soul, or of their humanity.
I leave that to the more qualified.
Among Christians, many correctly will invite constructive and loving criticism. But I can only provide my imperfect opinion. Not Divine judgement.
Just between you and me, shhh....another way to look at forgiveness is there is nothing TO forgive.
(I mean when you see this is all Illusion and there is Only One Entity, shapeshifting looking like 'us', a tree, a planet".)
Sorry, I had an STE, a spiritually transcendent, transformative exp, first time at 8 years old...with my mouth dropped, I will add. And wow.
I know it is tuff for Left Brainers to understand this; it's how God made 'em..it's all perfect.
But what does this mean?
Still trying to understand what you are saying here.
(the bold.)
We're all an illusion and there is only one entity shapeshifting?
So you're saying we all make up God? In my earlier example of abuse, God is both the abuser and the abused?
Am I on the right track with understanding what you mean, or am I completely wrong?
I always try to understand this particular view, but the people I talk with always seem to clam up on me... lol.
Is it THAT difficult to explain? Or am I just too dense?
But what does this mean?
Still trying to understand what you are saying here.
(the bold.)
We're all an illusion and there is only one entity shapeshifting?
So you're saying we all make up God? In my earlier example of abuse, God is both the abuser and the abused?
Am I on the right track with understanding what you mean, or am I completely wrong?
I always try to understand this particular view, but the people I talk with always seem to clam up on me... lol.
Is it THAT difficult to explain? Or am I just too dense?
Hi sparrow, well from what I understand it's like we are all playing a video game so if our avatar robs a bank or steals a car it's not really happening because all our lives are a simulation. In the video game we rob a bank or steal a car but in real life the bank is fine and the car was not stolen.
There's another interesting theory that we are already dead but don't know it yet, so this illusion of time we think we are going through already occured so we have no free will. We are just going through the motions of something that already happened to us without even realizing our free choice was already made by the future us.
Try to think of it this way, you are the star of your own reality show. There are hundreds of crew members filming your every move to put you on a future TV broadcast, but what you don't realize is that your movie from birth to death was already filmed and finished. When you look behind the curtain of the production company filming your TV show you discover to your horror it is already playing and your movie reel is at the midway point and the scene your looking at is you walking behind the curtain of the production company discovering your movie is already made. You can speed up to the ending of your film to see how you died, but no matter what you do you have to mimic everything that was already filmed about your entire life.
That reality would make a very scary twilight episode. Could you imagine if you sped up the film to one minute after you found your film and saw that 1 minute in the future you raise your right hand unexpectedly, and then one minute passes and an unseen force makes you raise your right hand? What a nightmare but that is what predestination would look like. I saw all these strange realities when I died. It was so cool, but then again lol, I'm a little weird person!
As Christian, I share your view. I assume we're talking about moral judgement. Not does my shirt match my pants.
We Christians are instructed to forgive those who trespass against US.
I cancel whatever indebtedness I believe or perceive is due to ME.
I'm unqualified to make a moral judgement of another's soul, or of their humanity.
I leave that to the more qualified.
Among Christians, many correctly will invite constructive and loving criticism. But I can only provide my imperfect opinion. Not Divine judgement.
I dont believe in moral judgement, only what is ethical.
Quote:
In a broader sense, ethics reflects on human beings and their interaction with nature and with other humans, on freedom, on responsibility and justice
I believe in discrimination, what is of value and what is not.
Forgiveness cannot be commanded, it flows naturally through understanding. If there is no understanding there can be no forgiveness. It is the responsibility of the doer of the deed to ask for forgiveness, to admit what happened instead of gaslighting, and to do penance. In other words forgiveness is more important to the guilty to live in peace, than for the one who is hurt. We are asked to carry no vengeance in our heart, so we can be free of the burden and pain. Let it go.
On the whole I thing it is easier and clearer to follow what one should not, rather than what one should.
In order to forgive, truly forgive, you must have compassion. Forgiving just to relieve yourself of anger/bitterness is not full forgiveness, or true forgiveness. True forgiveness is having compassion towards the one who harmed you and seeing the "image of God" within that person, and truly forgiving. For some cases, this can be an extraordinary feat that showcases the truth of "God IS love."
Do you see how this instruction to forgive because God wants you to can be harmful? Forgiveness always has to be voluntary and it flows from understanding. Not compassion or love, but understanding why one was hurt. That understanding can come only when the person who did the harm takes pains to explain himself, owns his actions, and is contrite. This is reconciliation and goodwill. Without that the person who is hurt can decide to let it go, decide he will bear no anger or hate, and get on with his life, and also choose not to have a relationship with a person who harmed him, just as we avoid what hurts or harms us. We do this all the time here. We avoid nasty posters by muting them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I guess where I have some confusion is in the "what happens was meant to happen.... all IS right with the world" sentiment. How was a child being sexually abused and then murdered "meant to happen" and how is that part of "all is right with the world"?
The abuse did not happen because of the world and the laws of cosmos. People choose their action and are responsible for their actions, and the result of the action WILL fructify, be they good or bad action. That is karma and this is also according to the laws of the cosmos. These actions and their result, karma, affects all of us. We cannot escape from the racists action of the past, the lynchings, rapes, and torture of enslaved people by saying "I did not do it so why should I care?" The laws of cosmos is all actions and their results affect all of us. Same with good actions. Those who save lives placing their own in jeopardy, saves all of us. The fact that it rains when it should and crops are harvested in time is due to the good karmas of all of us. That we go to war and destroy lives too will affect all of us, even if we did not go and kill children and old people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I don't think that was meant to happen at all. Eventually, I believe, those who harmed and those who were harmed will reconcile. But in the present moment, no, I do not think that it was meant to happen or that all IS right with the world. I believe all WILL BE right with the world, but in the present moment, all emotions including anger at injustice, are part of the learning process. I think a lot of things were not "meant" to happen, but they did happen because we humans choose to turn away from God (love) and walk down the wrong path (non-love, that which is not love, God is love, so that which is not Godly). When we do that, we can cause harm to others. That harm is real. It needs to be dealt with, and people healed. It's a process. I think there is a desire to skip that process. We can't. Remorse/compassion/forgiveness are all part of that process. A child being abused is not a neutral thing. It is a dark thing. That darkness needs to be accounted for and dealt with. (Again, it IS about remorse/compassion/forgiveness.) The process. We're here to learn by contrasts. What is God? LOVE. We have to learn just what love really is. The most powerful thing in the universe.
.
I think we are saying the same thing. Except God does not make anything happen or not happen. WE alone make it happen and and We do indeed need to heal the wrongs, and be compassionate and responsible.
Hi sparrow, well from what I understand it's like we are all playing a video game so if our avatar robs a bank or steals a car it's not really happening because all our lives are a simulation. In the video game we rob a bank or steal a car but in real life the bank is fine and the car was not stolen.
There's another interesting theory that we are already dead but don't know it yet, so this illusion of time we think we are going through already occured so we have no free will. We are just going through the motions of something that already happened to us without even realizing our free choice was already made by the future us.
Try to think of it this way, you are the star of your own reality show. There are hundreds of crew members filming your every move to put you on a future TV broadcast, but what you don't realize is that your movie from birth to death was already filmed and finished. When you look behind the curtain of the production company filming your TV show you discover to your horror it is already playing and your movie reel is at the midway point and the scene your looking at is you walking behind the curtain of the production company discovering your movie is already made. You can speed up to the ending of your film to see how you died, but no matter what you do you have to mimic everything that was already filmed about your entire life.
That reality would make a very scary twilight episode. Could you imagine if you sped up the film to one minute after you found your film and saw that 1 minute in the future you raise your right hand unexpectedly, and then one minute passes and an unseen force makes you raise your right hand? What a nightmare but that is what predestination would look like. I saw all these strange realities when I died. It was so cool, but then again lol, I'm a little weird person!
Thanks Sarah. I appreciate your attempt. I've thought of those things before. That seems a little different from what Miss Hepburn was describing, though. Or maybe not. Maybe she will weigh in, later. I'm mostly interested in her view of "all is illusion" and "nothing to forgive" and "everything happening was MEANT to happen".
Thanks again, for your thoughts.
Do you see how this instruction to forgive because God wants you to can be harmful? Forgiveness always has to be voluntary and it flows from understanding. Not compassion or love, but understanding why one was hurt. That understanding can come only when the person who did the harm takes pains to explain himself, owns his actions, and is contrite. This is reconciliation and goodwill. Without that the person who is hurt can decide to let it go, decide he will bear no anger or hate, and get on with his life, and also choose not to have a relationship with a person who harmed him, just as we avoid what hurts or harms us. We do this all the time here. We avoid nasty posters by muting them.
?? When did I every say that forgiveness doesn't have to be voluntary? "instruction to forgive"? I don't really know where you are getting this from? You seem to be infusing religious doctrine into my words. I never said anything about forgiving because God wants you to forgive. Like we are to be robots or something, just following orders. I never said or implied that.
I believe compassion and love are absolutely, necessary in the "understanding" part. How could it not be? I'm talking about being able to forgive those who have harmed you or your loved ones, WITHOUT the benefit of the person who did the harming "taking pains to explain himself, own his actions" etc. It's not that hard to forgive someone who is genuinely sorry for what they have done, sees the errors of their ways, and has sincerity. The person who has done the harm WILL one day have to come to terms with what they have done, (as we all will as we go through this life, we learn by our mistakes.)
Quote:
The abuse did not happen because of the world and the laws of cosmos. People choose their action and are responsible for their actions, and the result of the action WILL fructify, be they good or bad action. That is karma and this is also according to the laws of the cosmos. These actions and their result, karma, affects all of us. We cannot escape from the racists action of the past, the lynchings, rapes, and torture of enslaved people by saying "I did not do it so why should I care?" The laws of cosmos is all actions and their results affect all of us. Same with good actions. Those who save lives placing their own in jeopardy, saves all of us. The fact that it rains when it should and crops are harvested in time is due to the good karmas of all of us. That we go to war and destroy lives too will affect all of us, even if we did not go and kill children and old people.
Yes, people choose their actions. Are you saying the child being abused is suffering some karmic retribution, then? Is that why it is "right with the world?"
?? When did I every say that forgiveness doesn't have to be voluntary? "instruction to forgive"? I don't really know where you are getting this from? You seem to be infusing religious doctrine into my words. I never said anything about forgiving because God wants you to forgive. Like we are to be robots or something, just following orders. I never said or implied that.
My mistake attributing to you something that you don’t believe. I read that into this “ True forgiveness is having compassion towards the one who harmed you and seeing the "image of God" within that person, and truly forgiving. For some cases, this can be an extraordinary feat that showcases the truth of "God IS love."
Can you explain and clarify what that means?
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
I believe compassion and love are absolutely, necessary in the "understanding" part. How could it not be? I'm talking about being able to forgive those who have harmed you or your loved ones, WITHOUT the benefit of the person who did the harming "taking pains to explain himself, own his actions" etc. It's not that hard to forgive someone who is genuinely sorry for what they have done, sees the errors of their ways, and has sincerity. The person who has done the harm WILL one day have to come to terms with what they have done, (as we all will as we go through this life, we learn by our mistakes.)
Yes, people choose their actions. Are you saying the child being abused is suffering some karmic retribution, then? Is that why it is "right with the world?"
I guess we dont have the same concept of what forgiveness means. I believe you cannot forgive someone who is not asking for forgiveness. If it is not a religious doctrine then why the need to forgive in a void? It is not the forgiving that cleanses you but not being attached to vengeance and retribution for some wrong done to you.
The karmic retribution is for the person who does harm, not the child. The karmic retribution is to the person who has the monstrous impulse to do such a thing. The kind of person we are is the result of our karma - the kind of parents we were born to, the family, the place, the capacity we have for self evolution. How we deal with all that is our own will. How much we will achieve is undeterminable.
According to your view of forgiveness should the child, if he was not murdered, forgive the abuser? See the image of God in him?
My mistake attributing to you something that you don’t believe. I read that into this “ True forgiveness is having compassion towards the one who harmed you and seeing the "image of God" within that person, and truly forgiving. For some cases, this can be an extraordinary feat that showcases the truth of "God IS love."
Can you explain and clarify what that means?
I guess we dont have the same concept of what forgiveness means. I believe you cannot forgive someone who is not asking for forgiveness. If it is not a religious doctrine then why the need to forgive in a void? It is not the forgiving that cleanses you but not being attached to vengeance and retribution for some wrong done to you.
The karmic retribution is for the person who does harm, not the child. The karmic retribution is to the person who has the monstrous impulse to do such a thing. The kind of person we are is the result of our karma - the kind of parents we were born to, the family, the place, the capacity we have for self evolution. How we deal with all that is our own will. How much we will achieve is undeterminable.
According to your view of forgiveness should the child, if he was not murdered, forgive the abuser? See the image of God in him?
Sparrow is not saying anything you have not said in your own view of Divinity. Divinity is in all of us. Why are you arguing with that?
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