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I first read Why Christianity Must Change or Die when my late uncle was still alive and we conversed frequently via Email. My uncle had a theological background, which I do not, yet when I read Spong's book I felt as though I had finally discovered someone who held many of the same ideas and observations as myself. My uncle pointed out that Spong was obviously a very caring and mystical apologist and that he exhibited true love for people and a genuine concern and search for the truth.
He also agreed that the Bible was not, and never meant to be the "Word of god" the Bible was a reference for early Christians. There is a difference between inspired scripture and absolute truth, and sadly many churches, in desperation, follow the concepts of the latter.
The scriptures , as Spong pointed out, were not about god but pointed a way towards what we can call god. A failure of many fundamentalist churches is to center all theology around a literal interpretation of the Bible and formulating a theology centered around it. (Like those who quote scripture towards every issue, as opposed to thinking for themselves, always saying "Well the Buy-bull says....") This becomes idolatry, and Spong was spot on with this.
I am so glad that you started this thread Fran and Meerkat too There are so many interesting and useful points to discuss.
I do not believe that a god exists in anyway. Spong described himself many times as a "non-theist" in that god is not a literal entity or being. He did have a god which was more of a concept.
Which for me, as an atheist, I do not have so much of a concept of a god but rather an appreciation for humanity (humanism)
There are times when I do go to an Episcopal church (Spong was an episcopal bishop) and I can relate to things he said, that the creeds, readings, etc are outdated and irrelevant. But I am not sitting there thinking "Yea, Yea, this is true so ye say"
I can go to the opera and enjoy Don Giovanni, think what a good musical performance and story, and not leave thinking don Juan was a real person. I can leave an Episcopal church thinking how talented the musicians are, how beautiful the Eucharistic mass (which has been well preserved in many cases more than the Roman mass) and yet not walk out believing the literal aspects of the creeds or scriptures.
I had parents who could not discern fiction and non-fiction and were afraid to even read or hear an alternate view because they might be influenced by it or even worse, might have to admit that they were wrong)And not just on religious topics.
IF or whatever reason, as Pheteroi mentioned "What if I have to admit that I am wrong?" Well my response is, what if?
Life is all about adventure and exploration. And spoiler alert : WE AS HUMANS ARE NOT PERFECT ! We really do not have all knowledge and understanding. Situations change, people change, discoveries happen every minute of every day. SO what if I was wrong about something?
I would rather say "yes, I was wrong but I found out now that did not know then what I know now"
Which is somewhat referencing what Spong says about Darwin and Newton in his points. Science is doing a great job of explaining life and the universe. Medicine and psychology endeavor to improve human(and feline) quality of life Religion, well, something written (like the Bible) has already been shown to be incorrect (Again though Darwin Newton and others) and as it fails to change, science corrects itself and moves forward. Religion tries to pull people backwards. I refuse to go back to an idea or belief that does not work. And I am glad that I do not know everything. How boring life would be if there was nothing to explore.
I observed growing up that my father hated to travel and explore. He also claimed on multiple occasions to know everything about everything, I think his church which said "We have all the answers" was partly to blame. Thing is, neither my dad nor his church had all the answers, and looking back and the entire group, most of the "answers" were unhealthy or outright malignant ! to him, no reason to explore the world because he already knew everything about everything out there. Sadly, he was so far off base as to the reality of life and the world that to this day he sits alone with no one in his family even wanting anything to do with him and his only friend circle being his church.
which brings up another point which Spong and I share. No group, no person, no book, no religion, no philosophy has all the answers. I dare say that they do not even have all the questions. Yet there are many organizations, from churches to cults which claim to have ALL the answers and are willing to trade your money and mind for them. Avoid them, for they can be more harmful than helpful. They themselves are their own bad example. Life is an ongoing series of learning, exploring, and if we cannot give ourselves the freedom to make mistakes AND learn from them then we risk falling into a trap of despair and hopelessness.
Just a personal sidebar. I was confirmed in an Episcopal parish in the Diocese of Newark in 1993.
I did not particularly care for Spong at the time because he just seemed like an attention hound to me. Fortunately, he was away when the confirmation took place, and so I was baptized by Jack McKelvey, Spong's adjutant, who was more traditional.
I am not sure what version of Christianity Spong is arguing against.
Most of his points seem like strawman arguments.
Point 1 seems to be saying he does not believe God exists. If this is what he is saying then the rest of his points are meaningless.
He is saying that the God as described and conceived of by our primitive ancestors "(and most Christians) does not exist. Jesus was trying to introduce our savage ancestors to God as the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness NOT wrath and vengeance. The problem was they were terrified of Spirits and too carnal to accept it.
His attempts to explain and reconcile their carnal views with the Spiritual ones resulted in His scourging and crucifixion. The ensuing attempts to reconcile the confusion produced the barbaric explanation that He was appeasing God's wrath and vengeance, as well as the convoluted nonsense of the Trinity, etc.
He is saying that the God as described and conceived of by our primitive ancestors "(and most Christians) does not exist. Jesus was trying to introduce our savage ancestors to God as the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness NOT wrath and vengeance. The problem was they were terrified of Spirits and too carnal to accept it.
His attempts to explain and reconcile their carnal views with the Spiritual ones resulted in His scourging and crucifixion. The ensuing attempts to reconcile the confusion produced the barbaric explanation that He was appeasing God's wrath and vengeance, as well as the convoluted nonsense of the Trinity, etc.
This thread should be a lively one. :-) Many thanks to Meerkat in helping me get this started.
I never read anything by Spong because I heard (in my research over the decades) that he was somewhat of a 'nut job'. He passed away a couple of years ago. For some reason, I started researching him. I wish I could tell him now how much his writings have meant to me.
So here we go -- and upon the good advice of Meerkat, we do not have to talk about them in order:
SPONG’S 12 POINTS FOR REFORM OF CHRISTIANITY
John Shelby Spong was the EC Bishop of Newark (New Jersey) from 1979-2000. He is a brilliant theologian who has written many intensely-researched books on Christianity. He calls for a new Reformation — a fundamental rethinking of Christian belief — in which many of Christianity’s basic doctrines should be reformulated.
Spong said: Martin Luther ignited the Reformation of the 16th century by nailing to the door of the church in Wittenberg in 1517 the 95 Theses that he wished to debate. My theses are far smaller in number than were those of Martin Luther, but they are far more threatening theologically. The issues to which I now call the Christians of the world to debate are these:
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ’s divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard written in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
12. All human beings bear God’s image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one’s being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
Spong is hardly any sort of representative for any sort of Christian teaching. He's been largely considered heretical.
Taking his opinion on how to reform Christianity would be like asking me how to reform Islam.
Spong is hardly any sort of representative for any sort of Christian teaching. He's been largely considered heretical.
Taking his opinion on how to reform Christianity would be like asking me how to reform Islam.
Spong is from the Christian tradition as opposed to some other faith tradition. So your analogy breaks down a bit even though it is kind of funny.
However, being characterized as a heretic is no big thing. Just about every well known preacher gets accused of being a heretic by somebody. Even John MacArthur (one of your Baptist types) who spends a good amount of his time accusing others of being a heretic... gets accused by some of the crazier preachers as being a heretic.
Meanwhile, the followers of said heretic are going to stick with their guy and dismiss your accusations just as quickly as you dismiss the said heretic's theology.
But this guy is pretty radical so I imagine he gets hit pretty hard with the heresy claims. (Note :I guess he is dead now).
I was reading an article today about Buddhist nuns in Thailand, and this statement reminded me of this thread:
“If you use religion as your argument, you leave no room for discussion. If you have a whole society that believes this is the truth, then what are your possibilities of moving away from that?”
I am not sure what version of Christianity Spong is arguing against.
Most of his points seem like strawman arguments.
Point 1 seems to be saying he does not believe God exists. If this is what he is saying then the rest of his points are meaningless.
I think it has to do with the version of Christianity that the reformation was against, and the one that Jesus personally was against as well
The one that adds many, many traditions for people to follow and ignores the emotional burdens that they are placing on the individual persons within the communities and under their own care - the ones of guilt, shame, fear,
I was brought up as a Christian in a Christian church and at 15 left the organisational church as I could see that there was that huge disconnect between God and the people that Spong is referring to
I’m now in my 60’s and I individually/personally ‘feel’ Christian but I don’t identify with any type of tradition - I don’t reject it, I look past it
The tradition I was brought up in was Presbyterian/Pentecostal and I do appreciate many different ‘traditions’ as having value for their own community- the Roman Catholic, the Baptist, the Methodist, Latter Day Saint, Church of Christ, the Buddhist, the Muslim, the Hindu etc
He isn’t saying that God doesn’t exist, it is more about our own human conception of God being naturally limited because as humans we are limited
Spong is from the Christian tradition as opposed to some other faith tradition. So your analogy breaks down a bit even though it is kind of funny.
However, being characterized as a heretic is no big thing. Just about every well known preacher gets accused of being a heretic by somebody. Even John MacArthur (one of your Baptist types) who spends a good amount of his time accusing others of being a heretic... gets accused by some of the crazier preachers as being a heretic.
Meanwhile, the followers of said heretic are going to stick with their guy and dismiss your accusations just as quickly as you dismiss the said heretic's theology.
But this guy is pretty radical so I imagine he gets hit pretty hard with the heresy claims. (Note :I guess he is dead now).
Spong is so far off the rails he isn't in the same county. It's sad that you're so uninformed that you can't see that.
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