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I have seen too many people profit from bad deeds, with their actions never catching up to them, to believe in karma. Likewise good deeds going unrewarded.
I consider reincarnation where the balance of unreturned karma is weighed against a person, to simply be just another afterlife gimmick that cannot be proven or disproven. But which conveniently explains some gaps in a religious theory that cannot be explained by facts on the ground.
Depends on how you define karma, and, while I am not an authority...just a practitioner, you may note in my opening post that I don't define it the way you are. Which is okay. Just noting the difference.
i don't really know what "cosmic justice" is supposed to mean, even though i have used the term
Karma and its fruitification is cosmic Law. it is cosmic because it is not meted out by anyone, it is the natural law and order of the universe, and it is not justice because it is not attached to any emotion of revenge or reward. It is the order of things just as rain follows evaporation, winter follows fall, a rose bud unfolds only when it is ready. that we dont get to have the satisfaction of seeing bad people suffer does not mean anything. the cosmic law follows its own order, not to our satisfaction.
I feel that way...in the sense that...take for example Hitler or Pol Pot...what kind of justice is there when the victims do not receive justice? That kind of "justice" seems more like revenge.
So now we are talking about revenge and "justice." Ha.
Karma and its fruitification is cosmic Law. it is cosmic because it is not meted out by anyone, it is the natural law and order of the universe, and it is not justice because it is not attached to any emotion of revenge or reward. It is the order of things just as rain follows evaporation, winter follows fall, a rose bud unfolds only when it is ready. that we dont get to have the satisfaction of seeing bad people suffer does not mean anything. the cosmic law follows its own order, not to our satisfaction.
I understand what you're saying, but it gets a little confusing becasue in Buddhism much weight is given to intent.
What I have found is that intent is often kept to oneself, and for the most part, for a good reason. Therefore, the other person or people will make assumptions, and they are not often on the positive side. Many would rather believe in bad intentions than good ones.
We have to since you brought it into the discussion.
Yes, because justice was brought into discussion as a better substitute for karma. seeking justice is the same as avenging harm done to oneself. It is revenge no matter how it is dressed up as laws. In some countries evidence for rape is two eyewitnesses. If a woman accuses a man of rape and is unable to provide the 2 eye witnesses, she is jailed. That is justice in some culture. How do you like them justice?
Justice is never, ever, just. It is always imperfect. We can only say this is the best we can do with the evidence we have. Evidence is not the same as truth.
Notice…these are a few of my thoughts about karma. I’m not expressing any official view of karma in any aspect of Buddhism. They’re my thoughts. Heck, half the posters on this forum make up stuff all the time; now it’s my turn. And this is what I think now. It may not be what I think six months or a year from now.
First off, and this has been my position for a very long time: karma is not some type of cosmic justice system. That is a somewhat pop Western view of karma that seems to be derived from christian thinking. In my view – and this is traditional Buddhist thinking for some Buddhists – karma is merely cause and effect. Do good things and you’re likely to find yourself in situations where good things are more likely to happen to you. Do bad things, hang with bad people, and more negative things are more likely to happen to you.
In Thai Buddhism, you might say that there are a set of scales seeking balance. On one side of the scales are things that one does that are good and create merit – “bun”. On the other side of the scales are things that are “evil”, or at least negative – “bap”. Okay, I can buy that concept.
But when I go back and connect that to The Noble Eightfold Path (Right understanding, Right thought, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration) and the concept that one should be held responsible for things done with intent (either bun or bap), I come to the conclusion that one EARNS bun or bap, and that brings in the factor of deciding what PRICE one can accept with a decision to do something that would appear to earn one bap (negative karma). This answers the puzzle about the perception that Buddhists are supposed to be passive. Passivity has often caused loss of life and even loss of country. Passivity sometimes causes divorce and sometimes allows child or spousal abuse. Passivity is often not a good thing. The question is, at least to me, what price is one willing to pay – including bap – for not being passive or for doing other things that may be necessary, but negative? That is the earning of karma, bap or bun.
Again, just some of my thoughts.
The bolded statements contradict each other - you said first you don't believe karma is a "cosmic justice system," but that you say you've concluded it is just that.
Yes, because justice was brought into discussion as a better substitute for karma. seeking justice is the same as avenging harm done to oneself. It is revenge no matter how it is dressed up as laws. In some countries evidence for rape is two eyewitnesses. If a woman accuses a man of rape and is unable to provide the 2 eye witnesses, she is jailed. That is justice in some culture. How do you like them justice?
Justice is never, ever, just. It is always imperfect. We can only say this is the best we can do with the evidence we have. Evidence is not the same as truth.
You go right ahead and treasure your obsession with revenge. It's so what many of your posts are about. So very Hindu...so very Yama.
Thank goodness Siddhartha walked away from Hinduism.
The bolded statements contradict each other - you said first you don't believe karma is a "cosmic justice system," but that you say you've concluded it is just that.
Not at all. Your thinking is just limited. You seem to have missed this part of my original post: "karma is merely cause and effect. Do good things and you’re likely to find yourself in situations where good things are more likely to happen to you. Do bad things, hang with bad people, and more negative things are more likely to happen to you".
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