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Notice…these are a few of my thoughts about karma. I’m not expressing any official view of karma in any aspect of Buddhism. They’re my thoughts. Heck, half the posters on this forum make up stuff all the time; now it’s my turn. And this is what I think now. It may not be what I think six months or a year from now.
First off, and this has been my position for a very long time: karma is not some type of cosmic justice system. That is a somewhat pop Western view of karma that seems to be derived from christian thinking. In my view – and this is traditional Buddhist thinking for some Buddhists – karma is merely cause and effect. Do good things and you’re likely to find yourself in situations where good things are more likely to happen to you. Do bad things, hang with bad people, and more negative things are more likely to happen to you.
In Thai Buddhism, you might say that there are a set of scales seeking balance. On one side of the scales are things that one does that are good and create merit – “bun”. On the other side of the scales are things that are “evil”, or at least negative – “bap”. Okay, I can buy that concept.
But when I go back and connect that to The Noble Eightfold Path (Right understanding, Right thought, Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness, and Right concentration) and the concept that one should be held responsible for things done with intent (either bun or bap), I come to the conclusion that one EARNS bun or bap, and that brings in the factor of deciding what PRICE one can accept with a decision to do something that would appear to earn one bap (negative karma). This answers the puzzle about the perception that Buddhists are supposed to be passive. Passivity has often caused loss of life and even loss of country. Passivity sometimes causes divorce and sometimes allows child or spousal abuse. Passivity is often not a good thing. The question is, at least to me, what price is one willing to pay – including bap – for not being passive or for doing other things that may be necessary, but negative? That is the earning of karma, bap or bun.
Again, just some of my thoughts.
true to some extent but really ... what's the extent of bad things that happened to Hitler or Bin Ladin or Ariel Sharon when you compare it with the extent of bad things they indulge onto others?
In my opinion, 'cause and effect' (as you stated), if analyzed from a spiritual angle, may or not always happen - but - a final and absolute justice has to happen so that bap and bun can be put on a scale.
And that's where the faith of judgement day comes into play.
true to some extent but really ... what's the extent of bad things that happened to Hitler or Bin Ladin or Ariel Sharon when you compare it with the extent of bad things they indulge onto others?
In my opinion, 'cause and effect' (as you stated), if analyzed from a spiritual angle, may or not always happen - but - a final and absolute justice has to happen so that bap and bun can be put on a scale.
And that's where the faith of judgement day comes into play.
Those are fair points, in the sense that justice isn't always done or at least evident. Hitler, for example, up until he offed himself, experienced no real consequences and apparently no remorse for the inconceivable human suffering he caused. So yes, one wishes for some kind of at least ultimate justice, and this HAS to be displaced into some sort of afterlife because it often clearly doesn't happen in THIS one.
But wishing doesn't make a thing so. Bad people often get away with doing bad things and in fact it's not rare that good people get no credit, or even unjust harms, for doing good things. If it helps some folks to imagine a comeuppance that is missing, terrific -- but as far as I can tell, the only REAL remedy is to work to eliminate the dual justice system we live under -- the one where our rulers and wealthy robber barons and landlords get away with horrible crimes while you and I pay fines for the slightest offense. Working on the actual problem would be better than fantasizing about delayed postmortem justice.
Those are fair points, in the sense that justice isn't always done or at least evident. Hitler, for example, up until he offed himself, experienced no real consequences and apparently no remorse for the inconceivable human suffering he caused. So yes, one wishes for some kind of at least ultimate justice, and this HAS to be displaced into some sort of afterlife because it often clearly doesn't happen in THIS one.
But wishing doesn't make a thing so. Bad people often get away with doing bad things and in fact it's not rare that good people get no credit, or even unjust harms, for doing good things. If it helps some folks to imagine a comeuppance that is missing, terrific -- but as far as I can tell, the only REAL remedy is to work to eliminate the dual justice system we live under -- the one where our rulers and wealthy robber barons and landlords get away with horrible crimes while you and I pay fines for the slightest offense. Working on the actual problem would be better than fantasizing about delayed postmortem justice.
In principle, I agree with you that we should always strive to stand up against tyranny and work towards fairness and justice for all. This is a true. No doubt!
However, there is another fact that is even more truthful. And we must acknowledge it.
We will NEVER EVER achieve a 100%. I mean, not even close.
There were, is and there will always, always and always be a lot of bad people among us doing a lot of bad things to others. And there will also be a good people among us doing good things.
This is just part of collective human nature. A precedent set by nature before the game even started.
We are designed to have a potential to do a lot of good, and to do a lot bad.
So there will always be these two groups joined by a gray area of a Venn diagram.
So the question is, which group we want to belong to?
And since we acknowledge that there will ALWAYS be injustice, and lots of it (which doesn't mean we should stop working towards having a uniform fair and justice for all), and there will always be a lot of bad people getting away with a lot of bad things, we can choose to hope for the ultimate cosmic justice for such people.
true to some extent but really ... what's the extent of bad things that happened to Hitler or Bin Ladin or Ariel Sharon when you compare it with the extent of bad things they indulge onto others?
In my opinion, 'cause and effect' (as you stated), if analyzed from a spiritual angle, may or not always happen - but - a final and absolute justice has to happen so that bap and bun can be put on a scale.
And that's where the faith of judgement day comes into play.
In principle, I agree with you that we should always strive to stand up against tyranny and work towards fairness and justice for all. This is a true. No doubt!
However, there is another fact that is even more truthful. And we must acknowledge it.
We will NEVER EVER achieve a 100%. I mean, not even close.
There were, is and there will always, always and always be a lot of bad people among us doing a lot of bad things to others. And there will also be a good people among us doing good things.
This is just part of collective human nature. A precedent set by nature before the game even started.
We are designed to have a potential to do a lot of good, and to do a lot bad.
So there will always be these two groups joined by a gray area of a Venn diagram.
So the question is, which group we want to belong to?
And since we acknowledge that there will ALWAYS be injustice, and lots of it (which doesn't mean we should stop working towards having a uniform fair and justice for all), and there will always be a lot of bad people getting away with a lot of bad things, we can choose to hope for the ultimate cosmic justice for such people.
i don't really know what "cosmic justice" is supposed to mean, even though i have used the term
And since we acknowledge that there will ALWAYS be injustice ... we can choose to hope for the ultimate cosmic justice ...
Sure, that's certainly an option. If it helps you, go for it. Without god-beliefs, that's not an option for me, but I have never seen much point in it. On a practical human scale, justice delayed is justice deferred.
I have not experienced much injustice in my life really, and have had a fair bit of privilege, so maybe I'd feel differently if that weren't my situation ... still, I think my wife, who HAS experienced a lot of injustice and betrayal in life from people she should be able to trust, has given me a masterclass in how to handle it with grace and class. Forgive, own her own role, let go of attachments, be kind, yet have good boundaries. No need for cosmic justice or a sense that something is unresolved. Everything can be resolved in between your ears. That was concentration camp survivor Victor Frankl's whole point, you can always choose your response to injustice and injury. Sometimes I think ultimate justice can be an excuse to hold on to things we shouldn't be holding on to. But ... I admit to understanding why the concept is attractive to many.
Sure, that's certainly an option. If it helps you, go for it. Without god-beliefs, that's not an option for me, but I have never seen much point in it. On a practical human scale, justice delayed is justice deferred.
...
I feel that way...in the sense that...take for example Hitler or Pol Pot...what kind of justice is there when the victims do not receive justice? That kind of "justice" seems more like revenge.
I feel that way...in the sense that...take for example Hitler or Pol Pot...what kind of justice is there when the victims do not receive justice? That kind of "justice" seems more like revenge.
It's human nature to want your tormentor to suffer as you did, in the mistaken notion, I guess, that they will then understand how they have hurt you, or ... something. But someone who lacks the circuitry for empathy (no working mirror neurons, medically speaking) will never get the point. In fact, the cruelty itself is often the point for these sociopaths. It gives them a feeling of power and mastery to inflict pain. We see the same principle at work in the cruel, hateful public policy that's often being put forward these days. They do it because they can, whenever they can, however they can. Lacking as they do any faculty for remorse or self reflection, and often having way more money and/or power than sense, fear of consequences isn't even in the mix really. Whether those consequences are temporal or not.
In public and private life, the only real answer is to stop giving power to people who aren't worthy of it. Here, an ounce of prevention is worth about 10 tons of cure. I don't see how it helps to have, say, a holocaust and then have a bunch of people hang for it (which happened) -- it doesn't bring back the dead or restore the bereaved or psychologically scarred in any way other than the knowledge those people can never hurt anyone again, which I suppose is something, but ... pretty pathetic really, because there are more asshats standing in line to take the place of those judged guilty. How much better off might we be if, rather than fantasizing about "justice", we worked to understand how society keeps minting these people, and granting them power over others? IDK, just a thought ...
Sure, that's certainly an option. If it helps you, go for it. Without god-beliefs, that's not an option for me, but I have never seen much point in it. On a practical human scale, justice delayed is justice deferred.
I have not experienced much injustice in my life really, and have had a fair bit of privilege, so maybe I'd feel differently if that weren't my situation ... still, I think my wife, who HAS experienced a lot of injustice and betrayal in life from people she should be able to trust, has given me a masterclass in how to handle it with grace and class. Forgive, own her own role, let go of attachments, be kind, yet have good boundaries. No need for cosmic justice or a sense that something is unresolved. Everything can be resolved in between your ears. That was concentration camp survivor Victor Frankl's whole point, you can always choose your response to injustice and injury. Sometimes I think ultimate justice can be an excuse to hold on to things we shouldn't be holding on to. But ... I admit to understanding why the concept is attractive to many.
My rationale behind it (and it's mostly based on assumptions and personal belief is that) when I look at how things work in the nature and in the universe, I notice a of sense of things getting even and balancing out.
If there is a day, there is a night, if there are tears, there is laughter, if there is a left, there is a right, if there is an up, there is a down, if there is an evening, there is a morning ,,, things seems to balance out.
So, if there is a significant amount of injustice, then perhaps there has to be a pretty good amount of justice to even things out, for nature to take its due course.
I have seen too many people profit from bad deeds, with their actions never catching up to them, to believe in karma. Likewise good deeds going unrewarded.
I consider reincarnation where the balance of unreturned karma is weighed against a person, to simply be just another afterlife gimmick that cannot be proven or disproven. But which conveniently explains some gaps in a religious theory that cannot be explained by facts on the ground.
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