Sacred site versus oil drilling (exist, Earth, preach, spiritual)

[badlander]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I'm not quite clear why you are equating holidays with physical property.

BaptistFundie was claiming that not drilling on this land woyld be giving the Blackfeet more rights than Christians have and that his country does little for Christians. Those holidays are suppisedly sacred to Christians.

Its not like the USA only recognizes non Christians.

[phetaroi]

I just know one thing -- the reservation system and all the issues that surround it are a disgrace. A disgrace perpetuated by ALL involved. I don't know what the answer is, but it is untenable.

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by badlander

Please do not make my post something that they are not. Others have complained to you of doing the same to theirs. Why do you wish to stiffle others.

Here is your original post and your own words. Unedited

Originally Posted by badlander

Again what other religion has for the origin of the Earth a spot in the USA? Seems like the churches vast real estate holdings that are tax free is a somewhat special deal for religions. Your presidents invite pastors for the National prayer day and nirmally your poir neglected Christian religion gets the lions share of that. Has a blackfeet elder ever been invited to pray for your country on that day? How many Blackfeet holy days are stautory holidays?

What Christian religion rights are you willing to surrender so as to be treated equal to the Blackfeet/Blackfoot religion?

As an atheist I see extraordinary concern on your part that a Blackfeet Elder should be invited to pray (something you cannot possibly believe in as you believe in no deity) to pray for my country. I am pleased that you show so much concern for their religious rights while at the same time you want Christians to surrender some mythical rights that the Blackfeet do not have. Are Atheists selective about whose religion deserve respect and whose does not? why is that?


I know nothing about the Blackfeet"s holy days. Quite amazing you keep track of it as an Atheist> Maybe you can enlighten us as to what those days are and why you as an atheist think they are holy.
I have not stiffled you in any way because here you are posting and trying to silence me. If Others have complained to you of doing the same to theirs, then just let us just add my complaint that you are trying to stifle me to the list.

[badlander]

Originally Posted by cb2008

Here is your original post and your own words. Unedited.

As an atheist I see extraordinary concern on your part that a Blackfeet Elder should be invited to pray (something you cannot possibly believe in as you believe in no deity) to pray for my country. I am pleased that you show so much concern for their religious rights while at the same time you want Christians to surrender some mythical rights that the Blackfeet do not have. Are Atheists selective about whose religion deserve respect and whose does not? why is that?


I know nothing about the Blackfeet"s holy days. Quite amazing you keep track of it as an Atheist> Maybe you can enlighten us as to what those days are and why you as an atheist think they are holy.
I have not stiffled you in any way because here you are posting and trying to silence me. If Others have complained to you of doing the same to theirs, then just let us just add my complaint that you are trying to stifle me to the list.

I am totally aware of what my actual words were. And what I did not say. And how you twisted my words to mean something else. And how you do that so often. And any one else can see you tricks.

I will defend or explain my words or pists but I wil nit defend or explain what I did not write.

Hence Ibdo not need to tell you of any Holy days or why I consider them holy as I never made claims.

[BaptistFundie]

Originally Posted by badlander

It is the Blackfeet abd Blackfoot nations that are claiming that this land is important. I have and they di not declare it more important than any other religions rights.

Sorry if I was mistaken that Christmas and Easter were federal holidays and that schools and many buinessess close. I do understand that straight white Christian males are your coubtriez most persecutate group of citizens but that is for a different thread.

Juneteenth, Labor Day and Memorial Day are also federal holidays. They are not religious.

The government doesn't need a reason to take a long weekend.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by badlander

I am totally aware of what my actual words were. And what I did not say. And how you twisted my words to mean something else. And how you do that so often. And any one else can see you tricks.

I will defend or explain my words or pists but I wil nit defend or explain what I did not write.

Hence Ibdo not need to tell you of any Holy days or why I consider them holy as I never made claims.

What you said is clear as day. Perhaps some are disappointed that theists and non-theists support and oppose this outcome in roughly equal proportions, and therefore feel the need misrepresent others’ points of view in an attempt to support their agendas in different ways (e.g., conflating respect of Indigenous Americans’ traditional spiritual beliefs with disrespect of mainstream Christianity).

[badlander]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

What you said is clear as day. Perhaps some are disappointed that theists and non-theists support and oppose this outcome in roughly equal proportions, and therefore feel the need misrepresent others’ points of view in an attempt to support their agendas in different ways (e.g., conflating respect of Indigenous Americans’ traditional spiritual beliefs with disrespect of mainstream Christianity).

Thanks

[Thoreau424]

I highly value and respect the general approach of Indians towards land. It's not to be owned by anyone, though if a group has occupied that land for centuries (perhaps), it should stay in their hands and respected as the land of their forefathers. Walking and living on the same soil that connects with their ancestors is highly important.

Even more importantly, their appreciation for nature as it exists outside of man's tampering or abuse. There's something very beautiful and spiritual about land and nature on its own. Even the bugs and birds have something to teach us if we took the time to look closely.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

I highly value and respect the general approach of Indians towards land. It's not to be owned by anyone, though if a group has occupied that land for centuries (perhaps), it should stay in their hands and respected as the land of their forefathers. Walking and living on the same soil that connects with their ancestors is highly important.

Even more importantly, their appreciation for nature as it exists outside of man's tampering or abuse. There's something very beautiful and spiritual about land and nature on its own. Even the bugs and birds have something to teach us if we took the time to look closely.

The problem with that is that MANY tribes took away land from many other tribes.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

I highly value and respect the general approach of Indians towards land. It's not to be owned by anyone, though if a group has occupied that land for centuries (perhaps), it should stay in their hands and respected as the land of their forefathers. Walking and living on the same soil that connects with their ancestors is highly important.

Even more importantly, their appreciation for nature as it exists outside of man's tampering or abuse. There's something very beautiful and spiritual about land and nature on its own. Even the bugs and birds have something to teach us if we took the time to look closely.

Also perhaps if, in defeat, treaties granted them land of their own, they ought to maintain their own self-determination on said land.

Whether or not some tribes took land from other tribes doesn't make it right for the US government to renege its own agreements.

I suspect that we don't even correctly understand what tribal wars were about because of our own assumptions about land and what it is and who, if anyone, owns it. I'm given to understand that first nations peoples did not have a concept of owning land, or of ownership of things in general. So my guess is that they fought over other things and occupying land of the vanquished was an incidental matter, not a primary goal.

This was a source of misunderstanding between native tribes and settlers; gifts were given, ceremonially, but they were expected to be held in common and given back, eventually, and that included land. So it was not that the tribes on Manhattan were for example dumb for trading land for beads, they did not understand the concept of land ownership and the permanence with which we viewed it. It was a good will gesture to coexist, not an eviction notice, to them. I am sure this is not 110% universal among all tribes but that is my understanding of the gist of their thinking and values.

Nor do I assert that native peoples are noble savages, pure as the driven snow, 100% self consistent, etc. They are humans like everyone else. But I think we descendants of the settlers assume way too much about them as well.