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My point is that we currently don't allow any religion to dictate to others how things are done. Whether Christian or otherwise. So why this?
Well let's suppose you own 20 acres someplace and build a homestead there and it is then discovered there's a rich oil deposit there. Does the government have the right to take the oil by force? Even if they pay you for it? Maybe you don't want noisy oil pumps chugging away or the smell of bitumen in the air?
Native Americans don't just own their lands, they have been granted the status of quasi-independent nationhood. That is nationhood, independent of their traditional religions. So it is not just a religious issue but a sovereignty issue. Not to mention a quality / way of life issue.
In addition to that there's a long and shameful history of gradual encroachment on their reservations. They keep shrinking. There's not a history of keeping agreements. "Stop fighting us, and go back to your land and live in peace." "Well, this town needs to expand and you don't really need all that land in our opinion so move over again." etc etc.
The issue of pipelines crossing Indian land -- pipelines that sooner or later spring leaks and foul the waters, and have demonstrably awful safety records -- and it's entirely understandable that they are drawing lines in the sand. They just want to not be crowded, pressured, and imposed on. I'm afraid I completely see their point of view.
The activist groups are using Indian's as a last resort to pressure people to have their way. Maybe at some point some nomadic Indian setup a teepee and looked at nature, and took it all in, however none of the descendants today actually believe the land is sacred. If they are saying its sacred, its because they are trying benefit monetarily some way or another.
Also, its difficult for many Indians to stake land claims in areas. Indians were nomadic, and their lands which they roamed were conquered dozens of times over by other Indian tribes.
Like usual the activists found someone who's 20x grandparent, camped outside an area in the summer of 1469, and now its sacred land claim.
Well let's suppose you own 20 acres someplace and build a homestead there and it is then discovered there's a rich oil deposit there. Does the government have the right to take the oil by force? Even if they pay you for it? Maybe you don't want noisy oil pumps chugging away or the smell of bitumen in the air?
Native Americans don't just own their lands, they have been granted the status of quasi-independent nationhood. That is nationhood, independent of their traditional religions. So it is not just a religious issue but a sovereignty issue. Not to mention a quality / way of life issue.
In addition to that there's a long and shameful history of gradual encroachment on their reservations. They keep shrinking. There's not a history of keeping agreements. "Stop fighting us, and go back to your land and live in peace." "Well, this town needs to expand and you don't really need all that land in our opinion so move over again." etc etc.
The issue of pipelines crossing Indian land -- pipelines that sooner or later spring leaks and foul the waters, and have demonstrably awful safety records -- and it's entirely understandable that they are drawing lines in the sand. They just want to not be crowded, pressured, and imposed on. I'm afraid I completely see their point of view.
No one is actually LIVING on that land. It's a site they consider sacred due to religion. If we are not going to grant the same to another religion, we shouldn't grant it to them, is my point.
As for the discussion of pipelines? That's perhaps a political discussion, but I'm not sure how a pipeline is worse than transporting it by rail or by trucks, both of which can certainly have accidents and oil spills, and will also pollute the air.
No one is actually LIVING on that land. It's a site they consider sacred due to religion. If we are not going to grant the same to another religion, we shouldn't grant it to them, is my point.
As for the discussion of pipelines? That's perhaps a political discussion, but I'm not sure how a pipeline is worse than transporting it by rail or by trucks, both of which can certainly have accidents and oil spills, and will also pollute the air.
Again what other religion has for the origin of the Earth a spot in the USA? Seems like the churches vast real estate holdings that are tax free is a somewhat special deal for religions. Your presidents invite pastors for the National prayer day and nirmally your poir neglected Christian religion gets the lions share of that. Has a blackfeet elder ever been invited to pray for your country on that day? How many Blackfeet holy days are stautory holidays?
What Christian religion rights are you willing to surrender so as to be treated equal to the Blackfeet/Blackfoot religion?
Again what other religion has for the origin of the Earth a spot in the USA? Seems like the churches vast real estate holdings that are tax free is a somewhat special deal for religions. Your presidents invite pastors for the National prayer day and nirmally your poir neglected Christian religion gets the lions share of that. Has a blackfeet elder ever been invited to pray for your country on that day? How many Blackfeet holy days are stautory holidays?
What Christian religion rights are you willing to surrender so as to be treated equal to the Blackfeet/Blackfoot religion?
I am pleased to see a Jewish atheist who knows the holy days of the Blackfeet and is advocating for the celebration and recognition. What do you consider holy?
I don't one religion should be treated any differently than any other religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I don't think it's an issue of special treatment.
Christianity holds certain things sacred, and out of respect, to the extent possible, the government at all levels does not desecrate the things it holds sacred. We should do the same for native peoples.
I’m on the fence with this, but I err on the side of protecting this land. I don’t think the sincerely held spiritual beliefs of one group take precedence over another, but I think we owe some special treatment to the Indigenous North American peoples who have suffered, and continue to suffer, at the hands of North American governments.
20 square miles sound like a lot, but when you consider how much land in the western half of the U.S. is federally protected for a whole host of reasons, it’s really a drop in the bucket.
Again what other religion has for the origin of the Earth a spot in the USA?
Pretty sure JW's and Mormons have sacred sites in the US. Maybe not creation, but they have sacred sites. Who are you to suggest their site is more important because they are creation?
Quote:
Seems like the churches vast real estate holdings that are tax free is a somewhat special deal for religions.
And Native Americans have the same, as do other religions.
Quote:
Your presidents invite pastors for the National prayer day and nirmally your poir neglected Christian religion gets the lions share of that. Has a blackfeet elder ever been invited to pray for your country on that day? How many Blackfeet holy days are stautory holidays?
No clue, and I'm not sure how this matters. The token religious person appearing at a prayer breakfast does not make legislation. It's usually some popular, hippy dippy preacher that is long on public appeal and short on actual doctrine.
Quote:
What Christian religion rights are you willing to surrender so as to be treated equal to the Blackfeet/Blackfoot religion?
I'm still waiting for you to make the point that I have any more rights. Go ahead. Knock yourself out, enlighten me.
Pretty sure JW's and Mormons have sacred sites in the US. Maybe not creation, but they have sacred sites. Who are you to suggest their site is more important because they are creation?
And Native Americans have the same, as do other religions.
No clue, and I'm not sure how this matters. The token religious person appearing at a prayer breakfast does not make legislation. It's usually some popular, hippy dippy preacher that is long on public appeal and short on actual doctrine.
I'm still waiting for you to make the point that I have any more rights. Go ahead. Knock yourself out, enlighten me.
It is the Blackfeet abd Blackfoot nations that are claiming that this land is important. I have and they di not declare it more important than any other religions rights.
Sorry if I was mistaken that Christmas and Easter were federal holidays and that schools and many buinessess close. I do understand that straight white Christian males are your coubtriez most persecutate group of citizens but that is for a different thread.
Pretty sure JW's and Mormons have sacred sites in the US. Maybe not creation, but they have sacred sites. Who are you to suggest their site is more important because they are creation?
And Native Americans have the same, as do other religions.
No clue, and I'm not sure how this matters. The token religious person appearing at a prayer breakfast does not make legislation. It's usually some popular, hippy dippy preacher that is long on public appeal and short on actual doctrine.
I'm still waiting for you to make the point that I have any more rights. Go ahead. Knock yourself out, enlighten me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
I am pleased to see a Jewish atheist who knows the holy days of the Blackfeet and is advocating for the celebration and recognition. What do you consider holy?
Please do not make my post something that they are not. Others have complained to you of doing the same to theirs. Why do you wish to stiffle others.
It is the Blackfeet abd Blackfoot nations that are claiming that this land is important. I have and they di not declare it more important than any other religions rights.
Sorry if I was mistaken that Christmas and Easter were federal holidays and that schools and many buinessess close. I do understand that straight white Christian males are your coubtriez most persecutate group of citizens but that is for a different thread.
I'm not quite clear why you are equating holidays with physical property.
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