Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
By "spirituality" I understand mostly two things. First, the opposite of materialism, that is being less attached to the purely material things and putting a greater value on non-material ones: relationships, beauty, nature etc, having a sense of awe towards the world, a recognition of something greater than one's self. Second, a desire to attain greater knowledge and understanding, to grapple with the "big" questions. Do you think religious people are more likely to exhibit these two traits than atheists or agnostics?
For me, that sounds more like atheism. I find many religious people dismiss knowledge and understanding when it conflicts with what they want to be true, and often invent things they want to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norne
The reason I am asking this question is one of the arguments in favor of religion I have come across lately: namely that without religion, without a sense of something greater than himself, man becomes entangled in purely materialistic life, in chasing after the next nice car, or house, or promotion. What are your thoughts on this argument?
That is a very black and white, Christian centered view. Many of the earlier religions were based on improving the material world, praying for better crops, or wealth, or success in battle. One must remember that many people did, and still do not have the luxury of spiritual contemplation, ironically a pursuit of many who have the material wealth to be able to follow their 'spiritual' path.
By "spirituality" I understand mostly two things. First, the opposite of materialism, that is being less attached to the purely material things and putting a greater value on non-material ones: relationships, beauty, nature etc, having a sense of awe towards the world, a recognition of something greater than one's self. Second, a desire to attain greater knowledge and understanding, to grapple with the "big" questions. Do you think religious people are more likely to exhibit these two traits than atheists or agnostics?
The reason I am asking this question is one of the arguments in favor of religion I have come across lately: namely that without religion, without a sense of something greater than himself, man becomes entangled in purely materialistic life, in chasing after the next nice car, or house, or promotion. What are your thoughts on this argument?
Materialism is a worldview based on the objectification of reality. This worldview is the consensus worldview of everyone who believes that he/she is a human being with a mind and a body with or without a soul. Chances are, you do have this worldview. In which case, your spirituality, in essence, is a materialistic one even though you differentiate things like beauty, nature, and love from fame and fortune.
Materialism is the default worldview of mankind. Anyone who can get hurt or killed falling from a high place has this worldview. Therefore, we can conclude that even mountain goats and other animals have this worldview not to mention the Pope, the Dali Lama, and Hindu mystics of ancient times.
So, is there a spirituality that is beyond materialism? In the west, new-age spirituality derived from traditional religions, claims that it is possible to transcend materialism. This form of spirituality is supposed to enable the attainment of peace beyond all understanding (i.e. beyond the mind).
I'd keep religious and spiritual separated. I've see far too many who are religious, but void of spirituality. And I've found some who are spiritual, and absent of religion (like me).
The theme of the thread could lead to erroneous conclusions, like auto mechanics are the best drivers in the world, cooks are the healthiest eaters, etc.
I'd keep religious and spiritual separated. I've see far too many who are religious, but void of spirituality. And I've found some who are spiritual, and absent of religion (like me).
The theme of the thread could lead to erroneous conclusions, like auto mechanics are the best drivers in the world, cooks are the healthiest eaters, etc.
Agree the title of the thread could be misleading, but not wrong. I see religion and its teachings, not necessarily the practice, as the structure necessary for spiritual seeking. Spirituality is an action, it is seeking to understand the self and its relationship to what we see as the cosmos, and to what we sense and understand as Eternal Being. The religious practices, mindfully chosen, can aid in getting into a suitable attitude, like warming up before sprinting out the door for a run. That can result in soar muscles or even injury that might inhibit running the next day.
If one has no religion one can still be a seeker because it is a natural yearning. The teachings of religion gives one a foothold so we are not blindly flailing.
Those with neither religion nor the yearning, or has silenced the yearning, would not be spiritual.
Religion broadly correlates with (but is by no means dispositive of) spirituality.
Not necessarily. How would you equate a church or a priest telling you you can't have communion, or you need to be a member. Or that you have to believe in communion where the priest changes wine to blood... as connecting with spirituality? Spirituality needs no church, no priest, no elevated human official, no building, no group, etc. Spirituality is a direct connection between a person and God / higher being.
Spirituality can enhance religion, but religion tends to impede and compromise spirituality.
Not necessarily. How would you equate a church or a priest telling you you can't have communion, or you need to be a member. Or that you have to believe in communion where the priest changes wine to blood... as connecting with spirituality? Spirituality needs no church, no priest, no elevated human official, no building, no group, etc. Spirituality is a direct connection between a person and God / higher being.
Spirituality can enhance religion, but religion tends to impede and compromise spirituality.
Which is precisely why I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
Religion broadly correlates with (but is by no means dispositive of) spirituality.
By "spirituality" I understand mostly two things. First, the opposite of materialism, that is being less attached to the purely material things and putting a greater value on non-material ones: relationships, beauty, nature etc, having a sense of awe towards the world, a recognition of something greater than one's self. Second, a desire to attain greater knowledge and understanding, to grapple with the "big" questions. Do you think religious people are more likely to exhibit these two traits than atheists or agnostics?
The reason I am asking this question is one of the arguments in favor of religion I have come across lately: namely that without religion, without a sense of something greater than himself, man becomes entangled in purely materialistic life, in chasing after the next nice car, or house, or promotion. What are your thoughts on this argument?
To answer your title question: No, I do not think religious people are more spiritual. In my experience, a large number of people that practice a religion that I've encountered tend to be less so. Rather than incorporating their religion in to their inner life, they seem to see it as a set of rules and become dogmatic. (I am just talking about those I've encountered. I have no idea if they are representative, before any one jumps down my throat.)
While my spiritual practice does seem to be described by your first paragraph, I have found that most people I've encountered do not place much importance on those things, religious, agnostic, or atheists. It seems to me that everyone is hooked on the material world.
I DO believe that my practice is my relationship with the Greater Consciousness, and it does rule every facet of my life now. I do believe that if more people could develop such an understanding, our world would be much different than it is now, but to arrive here in this place, it is an inside job and one has to be motivated. It isn't something that can be written in a book and studied. It requires hours of reading wisdom teachings from all recognized sources and finding that core that is common to them all. It requires constant self-assessment, and elimination of a sense of self, of ego.
Not necessarily. How would you equate a church or a priest telling you you can't have communion, or you need to be a member. Or that you have to believe in communion where the priest changes wine to blood... as connecting with spirituality? Spirituality needs no church, no priest, no elevated human official, no building, no group, etc. Spirituality is a direct connection between a person and God / higher being.
Spirituality can enhance religion, but religion tends to impede and compromise spirituality.
Rather than allowing religion to dictate to innate spirituality it is possible to shape religion around spirituality. All religions have both sides, the literal and the spiritual. I struggle with insertions of misogyny or otherness in certain texts that are otherwise deeply meaningful and spiritual. If I am unable to rationalize them out, i simply ignore it and move on. There was a human behind the inspired writing. Why should we expect that a spiritual world should be free of human errors when our real world is not.
I cant speak for specific church related rites, but one can manage to straddle it as we do with all other things in life.
Rather than allowing religion to dictate to innate spirituality it is possible to shape religion around spirituality. All religions have both sides, the literal and the spiritual. I struggle with insertions of misogyny or otherness in certain texts that are otherwise deeply meaningful and spiritual. If I am unable to rationalize them out, i simply ignore it and move on. There was a human behind the inspired writing. Why should we expect that a spiritual world should be free of human errors when our real world is not.
I cant speak for specific church related rites, but one can manage to straddle it as we do with all other things in life.
Interesting that the Oxford definition of 'rationalize' is: "attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate".
Yup.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
