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Basically (although I am guilty of the above too sometimes) you need to consider all evidence and come to a conclusion. Because a truly spiritual person doesnt turn their back on the evidence they can see, they use it to reinforce things.
It may not be something I would agree with, but if you can show what led you to that point, and I can see how you became a certain type, I can't really argue. A spiritual person has a line of history from the choices they made. A non-spiritual one tends to have areas where its like "and why did you join this group?" and it seemed to be peer pressure vs any real reason.
You will not see many responses from the "lackers" (religious atheist) because they see that conclusion making their anti religion war harder because it forces the "middle of the roader", apologetic people, free thinkers, and rational thinkers a moment to pause and think.
"what exactly are we fighting about?"
Spiritual people are fighting the exact same things.
They are on the same side weather they are atheist or theists.
spiritual people understand that when the line is drawn. Both sides have many of the same flags, same clothes, same books, and same words. The two side will not have the same intentions. too bad, most people don't understand that many times, true intentions show up when the killing starts.
this thread proves its not about what spiritual people think, its about putting spiritual people against each other. It wont work though, they have the same intentions. Religious people will have fun bashing each other about who's side is better and has the real truth.
I have been both ends of the boob stick ... at the same time
... a truly spiritual person doesnt turn their back on the evidence they can see, they use it to reinforce things.
The proper use of evidence is to draw conclusions about reality, not to selectively "reinforce things" or try to force-fit it into some preconceived understanding of reality. An awareness of new evidence is generally going to change, rather than reinforce, your beliefs. Because let's fact it, our beliefs tend to be mistaken on a pretty regular basis. That is why I don't afford belief to a thing until there's a preponderance of evidence in its favor.
The proper use of evidence is to draw conclusions about reality, not to selectively "reinforce things" or try to force-fit it into some preconceived understanding of reality. An awareness of new evidence is generally going to change, rather than reinforce, your beliefs. Because let's fact it, our beliefs tend to be mistaken on a pretty regular basis. That is why I don't afford belief to a thing until there's a preponderance of evidence in its favor.
this is a personal opinion and does not describe how the universe works. This describes how you want it to work. no wonder you ignored me, like philosophy, personal opinions can help people dismiss reality in favor of personal need. And that stance crumbles fast in the face of is real, "alive" is far more reasonable than any other descriptor. what you don't want it to mean is irrelevant to how it is.
One never fully recovers from being a fundy, they are only waiting for the next relapse.
As shown here.
By "spirituality" I understand mostly two things. First, the opposite of materialism, that is being less attached to the purely material things and putting a greater value on non-material ones: relationships, beauty, nature etc, having a sense of awe towards the world, a recognition of something greater than one's self. Second, a desire to attain greater knowledge and understanding, to grapple with the "big" questions. Do you think religious people are more likely to exhibit these two traits than atheists or agnostics?
The reason I am asking this question is one of the arguments in favor of religion I have come across lately: namely that without religion, without a sense of something greater than himself, man becomes entangled in purely materialistic life, in chasing after the next nice car, or house, or promotion. What are your thoughts on this argument?
It sounds to me like you're conflating two uses of the word 'materialism'. One use, the one that is used relatively commonly in everyday speech, is the one you've referenced above--prioritization of accumulating possessions. The other is the philosophical belief that all of reality has physical causes, that it makes no sense to speak of metaphysics...or, indeed, spirituality, derived as 'spirituality' is from the notion of the 'immaterial' spirit/soul.
I am an atheist and a materialist in the latter sense of the word. As such, I believe that 'spirituality' refers to...nothing, ultimately. But in a mundane sense, there may be as many definitions for the word as there are people who use it. Even atheists use it. Prominent atheist Sam Harris wrote a book called 'Waking Up' which is his effort to define (and assert a role for) 'spirituality' without religion. He ends up doing little but discussing meditative techniques, hallucinogens, and assorted personal experiences and musings.
If you're an intellectually consistent atheist, you're basically reduced (no pun intended...reductionism joke) to knowing nods when other people speak of 'spirituality', knowing that their illusions of 'something greater and 'mystical'/unexplainable' are all theoretically explicable by brain chemistry. It's an unromantic worldview to have, but that's reality.
It would depend. You may have a religious person who goes to church every single week of their life since they were born. They may sit in service but gossip or backstab about members and the way they dress or say didn't they wear the same thing last week etc.(I've heard it twice = two different versions in my volunteer ministry).
Then you may get another person who goes to services or their form of "church. " He may take to heart from a talk he hears how much God values it when put things right between ones we have a fallout with. In the same congregation. Jesus said before you offer your gift at the altar to God - if your brother has something against you - make your peace with him then go worship God. Matt 5:24. A gift at the altar would be our worship to God. To remember that someone has a grudge against us Jesus said its up to us to put it right. Not the other way round.
Thinking way back then in the days of the temple he may have referred to. The altar sat in the middle of the temple which had courtyards one had to pass through.There would have been other people to pass on the way or queue behind. Some with animals or birds to sacrifice. What if he had a bull. He had to leave it at the altar and retrace his steps to find one person, make amends then come all the way back again. If he had to he might have had to search the streets and markets of Jerusalem. To him it was worth it.
Ones conscience would dictate how much it meant to put matters between him and the other person before worshipping God. After all the thrust of Jesus words you must love Jehovah with your whole soul, mind & strength is the first command. The second you must love your fellow man as yourself played a vital part in making people understand that worship is not just going through the motions of saying we love God. We have to mean it.
Jesus battled his entire ministry with so called "religious" persons who he called hypocrites, off spring of vipers and blind men who bound up heavy burdens and taught commands of men as doctrines rather than Gods truths.
To illustrate how things were when Jesus arrived on earth- the poor people were called amharets or literally those of the dirt. They had manmade rules they were told to obey by Pharisees and Sadducees and other's. Things like washing up to the elbows when having a simple meal. Or it was considered work when ears of grain were plucked as one walked through a field and ate on the Sabbath. Mark 7:2 Matt 15:2-20 Matt 12:1-8
Jesus refuted both with simplicity.
Therein lies the key to religion. It enhances and brings praise to God. As Jesus dignified first his Father Jehovah then fellow humans thats what a "religious" person SHOULD do.
There is only one God Jehovah KJV Ps 83:18, one Jesus one Bible. Jesus said he was the way the truth and the life John 14:6. The Bible tells us why we need to follow it by its author:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts nor are my ways not your ways is the utterance of Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so MY WAYS are higher than your ways and MY THOUGHTS than your thoughts.
If we are being taught Gods ways ie God is love + we are made in his image our going to religious services etc should be making us better person's. Not better than our neighbor but better than what we were yesterday up to 2, 10, 20+ years ago.
Jesus says we become like lights put in a high place for all to see AND GIVE GLORY TO OUR FATHER. Matt 5:14-16
Basically (although I am guilty of the above too sometimes) you need to consider all evidence and come to a conclusion.
You should take your own advice then. Because there is no evidence for the nonsense you espouse. There is not a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer from you to lend even a MODICUM of credence to the claim there is a non-human intelligent and intentional agency at the root of the explanation for our existence.
Also take the after life. 100% of the evidence we have related to human conscious and sentience at this time links it to the brain. 0% of the evidence currently suggests a disconnect between the two. So not only is the after life unsubstantiated in and of itself, it as a claim actually goes AGAINST the evidence you do have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
Because a truly spiritual person doesnt turn their back on the evidence they can see, they use it to reinforce things.
I do not think being spiritual requires that one subscribes to notions on a lack of evidence, surrenders ones critical faculties, OR that they throw themselves at the mercy of confirmation bias.
That's interesting. I have had rather the opposite experience - with people who were so afraid to commit a sin that even getting out of bed in the morning turned to a moral dilemma (mostly figuratively).
I have known a few like this as well.. One guy actually got out of bed one day then took his own life rather than risk sinning...
By "spirituality" I understand mostly two things. First, the opposite of materialism, that is being less attached to the purely material things and putting a greater value on non-material ones: relationships, beauty, nature etc, having a sense of awe towards the world, a recognition of something greater than one's self. Second, a desire to attain greater knowledge and understanding, to grapple with the "big" questions. Do you think religious people are more likely to exhibit these two traits than atheists or agnostics?
The reason I am asking this question is one of the arguments in favor of religion I have come across lately: namely that without religion, without a sense of something greater than himself, man becomes entangled in purely materialistic life, in chasing after the next nice car, or house, or promotion. What are your thoughts on this argument?
The definition above of spirituality is good. It can also be defined as knowing the difference between what is eternal and what is not and clinging to That eternal thing. Second ability to filter duality out and perceive the reality of Oneness.
Rather than Religion as an institution what is important is the teachings that help us achieve the above.
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