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So glad you posted this link. As it assuredly points out, there are no concrete biomarkers or objective exams for "insanity" which means the whole concept of "mental illness" itself is a form of religion since it's completely taken on faith via decree from doctors and drug companies. The anti-Christian zealots on the internet want faith/religion to be rebranded as pathology but they're fooling themselves. Psychological/psychiatric constructs are just secular value systems cloaked in medical lingo. It's made up quackery.
This is a typical theist disavowal of mental illness that is dangerous. I can tell you that I deeply regret believing exactly this line of reasoning as it dangerously delayed my mentally ill first wife getting a decent standard of mental health care. Particularly in terms of what was available in the 1980s it was probably too little too late no matter what I did, but I very nearly got my throat slit in the bargain and am lucky to be having this conversation at all. I got out, and got my kids out, just in the nick of time.
The fact that there are mostly no concrete biomarkers or 100% undisputed exams for mental illness, and the fact that there are orders of magnitude of difference between a workmanlike mental health practitioner and a talented one, is more a reflection of a discipline in its relative infancy than anything else. It was only in the 1990s for instance that we started to get away from the (religiously grounded) notion that the parents of a mentally ill child are automatically the root cause of said illness -- a cause of incredible misdirection and suffering, both for children and their devastated parents.
My son suffers from a personality disorder that is essentially untreatable much less incurable at present. He lands smack in the middle of the identified risk group ... the children of schizophrenics -- which is another illness with an even grimmer prognosis in most cases (his birth mother has been in the nuthatch for 20 years or so now). Bad as those things are, I scarcely think turning over the treatment of the mentally ill to witch doctors and exorcists just so we can feel we are "doing something" is the answer. Praying about it obviously doesn't help. If there's an answer it's going to eventually be found in science. Religion never invents or innovates. That always comes from other quarters. Sorry. No brag, just fact.
All that said, if you want to offer up a prayer of healing for my son, I'll let you know if anything changes on this end. Might even make a believer out of me.
The danger in religion is not that it causes this behavior, it is that is excuses and rationalizes it. As Pookie points out, there are a multitude of other rationalization, religion just happens to be one of the most pervasive and powerful, precisely because it is an irrational proposition and makes no pretense otherwise.
It's all semantics. No one ever said I was "insane" when I was having severe panic attacks with agoraphobia, but I was certainly suffering from a fairly common mental illness.
The dictionary defines a "delusion" as "a belief strongly held despite invalidating evidence." I'd say most religion falls into that category. Oddly enough, said delusions might actually help people get through their lives if they are "happy" delusions. Unfortunately, many religions teach "unhappy" delusions like the threat of eternal torture in hell. Those negative delusions can certainly cause actual mental illnesses like anxiety and panic attacks.
This is a typical theist disavowal of mental illness that is dangerous. I can tell you that I deeply regret believing exactly this line of reasoning as it dangerously delayed my mentally ill first wife getting a decent standard of mental health care. Particularly in terms of what was available in the 1980s it was probably too little too late no matter what I did, but I very nearly got my throat slit in the bargain and am lucky to be having this conversation at all. I got out, and got my kids out, just in the nick of time.
We can agree to disagree. I view psychiatry as a destructive pseudoscience and no amount of anecdotes will change that. The fact that it works as a tool to sedate and police undesirable behaviors/people doesn't make it medically/scientifically valid. Further, the paternalistic and coercive part of the system is highly unethical and borders on illegal/inhumane, as does the pharma-influenced gravy train of dangerous mass drugging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
The fact that there are mostly no concrete biomarkers or 100% undisputed exams for mental illness, and the fact that there are orders of magnitude of difference between a workmanlike mental health practitioner and a talented one, is more a reflection of a discipline in its relative infancy than anything else.
Infancy? Mental health practice has existed in some form or another for over 200 years. Maybe you meant "scientifically primitive and logically flawed despite all the major advances in every other medical specialty".
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It was only in the 1990s for instance that we started to get away from the (religiously grounded) notion that the parents of a mentally ill child are automatically the root cause of said illness -- a cause of incredible misdirection and suffering, both for children and their devastated parents.
I'd argue this was a mistake though, as it's now easier for people to ignore their own poor parenting skills and dysfunctional abuse in favor of scapegoating their loved one by having them diagnosed/warehoused. There's no self-examination of their own role in contributing to their family members problems needed, just blame it on a "chemical imbalance" and shut them up with meds. This actually happened in my own family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
My son suffers from a personality disorder that is essentially untreatable much less incurable at present. He lands smack in the middle of the identified risk group ... the children of schizophrenics -- which is another illness with an even grimmer prognosis in most cases (his birth mother has been in the nuthatch for 20 years or so now).
Sorry, but I don't follow this. This is like talking to me about UFOs and aliens (or for the atheist cats on here, like talking about angels and demons). It's just quackery. FYI, I'm diagnosed schizophrenic myself and am doing just fine as, counterintuitive to what the medical establishment says, the prognosis for this factually non-existent disease tends to go up without the use of meds, as proven decades ago by the World Health Organization's International Pilot Study of Schizophrenia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Bad as those things are, I scarcely think turning over the treatment of the mentally ill to witch doctors and exorcists just so we can feel we are "doing something" is the answer.
Praying about it obviously doesn't help. If there's an answer it's going to eventually be found in science. Religion never invents or innovates. That always comes from other quarters. Sorry. No brag, just fact.
All that said, if you want to offer up a prayer of healing for my son, I'll let you know if anything changes on this end. Might even make a believer out of me.
Psychiatry isn't real science, it's guesswork and con artistry, and hasn't made a single meaningful innovation in decades. Its supposed treatments (therapy and drugs) are essentially placebos, which incidentally have the exact same effect as prayer - that is, feigned psychological improvement.
That a great deal of fundamentalist religious faith is the product of ignorance and stupidity. I reference those who cling to the mythological explanations of the origins of the cosmos despite what science has taught us in the last few centuries. I reference the assaults on evolution, the willingness to take marching orders about cultural do's and don't's from an ancient society which structured things to suit their conditions and limited knowledge, not ours in modern times.
To call it insanity is to underrate the simple stupidity which supports fundamentalist forms of faith.
3...2...1...zero...."Grandstander! How dare you claim all religious people are stupid!!??"
In anticipation, no, the above is not what I am arguing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
That a great deal of fundamentalist religious faith is the product of ignorance and stupidity. I reference those who cling to the mythological explanations of the origins of the cosmos despite what science has taught us in the last few centuries. I reference the assaults on evolution, the willingness to take marching orders about cultural do's and don't's from an ancient society which structured things to suit their conditions and limited knowledge, not ours in modern times.
I get that. But I'm trying to understand why calling it insanity to drown your child, underrates the stupidity and ignorance of the beliefs that contribute to someone acting out their insanity in such horrific ways?
Maybe I'm being too nitpicky and taking what you said too literally? If so, I'll blame it on my literal fundamentalist upbringing.
I get that. But I'm trying to understand why calling it insanity to drown your child, underrates the stupidity and ignorance of the beliefs that contribute to someone acting out their insanity in such horrific ways?
Maybe I'm being too nitpicky and taking what you said too literally? If so, I'll blame it on my literal fundamentalist upbringing.
I think you are trying to hold me responsible for someone else's post. I had no comments on drowning anyone.
It's all semantics. No one ever said I was "insane" when I was having severe panic attacks with agoraphobia, but I was certainly suffering from a fairly common mental illness.
The dictionary defines a "delusion" as "a belief strongly held despite invalidating evidence." I'd say most religion falls into that category. Oddly enough, said delusions might actually help people get through their lives if they are "happy" delusions. Unfortunately, many religions teach "unhappy" delusions like the threat of eternal torture in hell. Those negative delusions can certainly cause actual mental illnesses like anxiety and panic attacks.
Interesting. So can I suggest that all psychiatrists are delusional too when they strongly believe ("diagnose") people with chronic schizophrenia and ignore the "invalidating evidence" of World Health Organization longitudinal epidemiologic studies which prove that complete spontaneous recovery from psychological woes is not only possible but a statistical probability when patients take no medication and are unequivocally supported and treated like normal members of their respective society? Unfortunately many quacks teach "unhappy delusions" as well, like lifelong and incurable mental defectiveness that can cause actual self-fulfilling prophecies like permanent disability and suicide.
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