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Proving the existence of god is contrary to the nature of god. If we could prove there was a god, why would we need to be faithful? If we knew there was a god charity would become drudgery. All the proof we need is the fact that we are inherently motivated to try do good. This inherent motivation is present in the faithful as well as agnostics and atheist. This motivation is rewarded internally. Proving the existence of god would remove the internal reward.
Thriftylefty your words are confusing and ambiguous to me so could you please elaborate? For me, the type of faith you talk of is only necessary as a placeholder until proof is given.
Thriftylefty your words are confusing and ambiguous to me so could you please elaborate? For me, the type of faith you talk of is only necessary as a placeholder until proof is given.
The kind of faith I talk about is the faith that comes with knowing something with out having to have proof. Would you want to love some one who always needed you to prove that you loved them? I don't think god wants us to question him. Are we asking god to prove his existence when we seek proof that he exist?
According to William Lane Craig there are three facts that are recognized by most New Testament Historians concerning the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus:
1) His empty tomb
2) His post mortem appearances
3) The original disciples belief in his resurrection despite have disposition to the contrary
...
1. What Craig describes as "fact" are not facts. They are beliefs.
2. Craig derives his "fact" from the same place as you do....the Bible, which is not a historical source or even a reliable one.
3. Craig bases all his arguments on the belief that the Bible is true.
Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine, a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy.
Well they aren't necessarily personally my own evidences but the accepted evidences for theist philosophers and apologists. If I was to pick one that I think to be the strongest I would say the origin of the universe is probably the strongest because:
A) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
B) The universe began to exist.
C) Therefore the universe has a cause.
Yup. It surely has and did begin, since it "is", and we "are". But as to how? Now that is demonstrablypure speculation on the part of theists, but given the rash of wild assumptive theology that attends Christianity and it's most wistful hopes in defining it's origins without even a wisp of any predictable evidence, we can only stand in awe of such divine irrationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty
Proving the existence of god is contrary to the nature of god. If we could prove there was a god, why would we need to be faithful? If we knew there was a god charity would become drudgery. All the proof we need is the fact that we are inherently motivated to try do good. This inherent motivation is present in the faithful as well as agnostics and atheist. This motivation is rewarded internally. Proving the existence of god would remove the internal reward.
Agreed. And so there is an ongoing and near rabid resistance to seeing the world as we atheists so reliably and rationally see it. For the devoted and faithful to accept this is entirely counter-productive to their very existence. Their essential spiritual survival, so to speak. To agree with us is to pull the trigger on their own existence!
How then did we atheists arise? Was it God's particular will, to create some skeptical thinkers here on Earth? If so, why despise us, you stubborn hateful theists? Why did I gain the perspective as a late teen, to convert from a mindless Christian believer (takes one to know one?) to a confirmed and educated skeptical, critical thinker with it's obvious outcome: that I became on atheist.
Of was it simply Evolution at work as usual? We have perhaps an outlook that is essentially different and which will eventually enhance survival of we who are more culturally and ecologically fit, by the now established process of scientific research that the church has worked so very hard to violently and rigorously suppress through the ages, but is now absolutely losing it's presence and power to do so?
In the end, such suppression of the most adaptive human thought-producing genome will fail through our continued reproductive success and IQ superiority and, since all that we are is biochemically and genetically defined in our minds, by our inherited DNA, such inevitable improvements are inevitable, demonstrable and provable.
Watch the amazing NOVA series video "What Darwin Never Knew", esp. chapter 9 of the 14, in which the diferences in the human, versus the chimp, brain capacity and size are discussed. A function of the Evolution of the chimp's larger more powerful jaw versus ours.
That's all: a DNA switch plus the Hox gene's involvement, and a few letters on our identical codes, are now all that separates us from them. It suggests as well that we will be able to manipulate and improve our intelligence through future manipulation of our brain shell size and it's cortex!
Amazing: someone or an entire lab-improved (via artificially induced Evolutionary...) species who will be able, finally, to clearly understand, even if we "lesser" current en-route, transitionary Missing Link types can't, the origins of our universe, the concept of "infinity" and the rationale for an apparently endless universe, that so clearly eludes our present IQ levels, but which doesn't therefore prove a God. Any God for that matter.
The kind of faith I talk about is the faith that comes with knowing something with out having to have proof. Would you want to love some one who always needed you to prove that you loved them? I don't think god wants us to question him. Are we asking god to prove his existence when we seek proof that he exist?
? The people I love actually exist, I know they exist, no faith is needed, and it in no way diminishes my love and support for them. I do not "love' unicorns, vampires, or plastic man. I guess one could "love" their imaginary friend, but it doesn't amount to proof.
As to the OP, there is no proof, there is faith which is basically blind hope and/or a default position for unknown questions. Logic/reason don't have anything to do with it. Many people cannot emotionally deal with a "godless" universe, many do not understand science and/or want to fill in gaps with the myth of their society/childhood, etc. It is based on wishful thinking and/or fear and/or ignorance. God, gods, thor, unicorns, etc. may very well exist, but there isn't any proof.
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