The bible is not historical fact (Vatican, Biblical, Christianity, Satan)
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So, are we to ignore that the records of Ancient Egypt are false? Seriously? ]
I was watching the history channel yesterday concerning Egypt. King Tut fought a battle in Kadesh. He lost many men as did the other side. The battle resulted only in a truce. But the writings on the Egyptian walls say King Tut was victorious in that battle. They had this idea, the Egyptians did, that if they write it and believe it that it will be true. This is akin to the false notion of "Name it Claim it" group of Christians today. Even today, we write history the way we want it portrayed in our schools. For instance, for many many years we knew Columbus was not the original discoverer of America. But we, being a "Christian" nation needed a "Christian" discoverer.
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Some of the things in the bible could have actually happened. Historians and science have helped in that regard. The thing is, it was not written down right away. The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by more than 40 different authors living on 3 different continents. What I find really funny is that God spoke to people in biblical times. Why not today? If someone says that they speak to God, everyone thinks they are crazy. Some of these people are sane people who claim God told them to do something, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
How do you know Adam and Eve, Methusela, Noah etc. did not write down things as it happened? Then they passed what they wrote down to the next generation. What occurred in the Bible to me is believable because they wrote down the good, the bad and the very ugly. It wasn't written to just make them look good. It is an historical account of the promised Messiah from Genesis to Revelation. It is an historical account of the lineage from Adam to Jesus the promised Messiah.
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Truth is, there is no actual proof of who wrote the bible. It very well could have been a nut job. Here is my theory: For thousands of years people of in ancient times believed in many Gods (polytheism). During those times, they would make sacrifices and pray to certain Gods. Depending on how the day was they would decide if the Gods were happy, sad, or just plain pissed off. When the Gods were pleased, the people would rejoice and keep doing what they were doing. When the Gods where sad or angry the people would make sacrifices of plants, animals and even humans (in desperate times they would sacrifice babies, very sad). They would do these rituals, sacrifices and offerings until they believed the Gods where happy. Problem is... they had multiple Gods. While some Gods might be pleased, others would not be. They had to decide what God(s) was mad.
Of course they know who wrote the bible. Just read the beginning of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, minor prophets, former prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, etc.
It is interesting what you say about believing in gods. Abraham's father, Terra was an idol worshipper. Jacob's wife stole the idol from her father and hid it under her saddle as they ran off. Israel in Egypt was intercepted once again by the one true God Who created everything. But they quickly slid back into the heathen ideas of different gods. This was a constant problem with them. The prophets kept trying to get them to come back to the one true God.
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After a few thousand years or so they got tired of guessing what God they pissed off or were sad. They have stories of the Gods always feuding and killing each other. Then one God, in what I am assuming was an epic battle took control of the other Gods. He became the ruler of the Gods.
I don't see that description in the Biblical account of the one true God.
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The only proof of this mythological theory is the bible. Here is the interesting part, ready?
The Bible states...
psalms 82:1 - God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
(Concordant Literal Version)
An Asaphic Psalm
Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El; Among the elohim is He judging"
It isn't that difficult. In the Old Testament God told Moses he would be el and Aaron his prophet to Pharaoh. In the very same Psalm you quote He said to the rulers and judges of Israel: "ye are elohim" in 82:6.
This psalm was quoted to the people by Jesus here:
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [elohim is Hebrew and "theoi" (gods) is Greek for the same word in the NT]
So Elohim (singular) is stationed in the congregation belonging to El among the human elohim or rulers, judges, subjectors of the Israelite people to God.
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And of course the first commandment:
"You shall have no other gods before me."
It never actually states that there are no other gods. It only says that we shall worship, praise, and honor no other gods before him. Doesn't say we can't, just that they come second to him.
Exo 20:3 You shall not come to have other elohim in preference to Me. (CLV)
They were not to have any elohim in preference to the one true God, EL.
The apostle Paul wrote:
1Co 8:4-7 Then, concerning the feeding on the idol sacrifices: We are aware that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God
except One." (5) For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, (6) nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of
Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all
is, and we through Him." (7) But not in all is there this knowledge. Now
some, used hitherto to the idol, are eating of it as an idol sacrifice, and
their conscience, being weak, is being polluted." (Concordant Literal New Testament)
In the above, Paul, who was a trained Pharisee and learned in all the law, knew that "gods" were "idols." He was not saying there were actual GODS in competition with the GOD he and the Christians served.
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I'm not saying nobody should read the bible. I actually recommend it. It is a great parable. It teaches valuable lessons, some relevant to the times, others not so relevant.
That's nice but I hardly see how Paul's writings are a parable for something else. I don't see how Christ's death for all mankind, entombment and resurrection is a parable for something else. Yes, there are some parables in the Bible such as the group of parables Christ spoke concerning the drag net, the importunate widow, the prodigal son, the rich man and lazarus. But when something spoken is a parable we know it is taken to be just that in contrast to what was spoken to be taken literally. Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
The Bible categorically states that it was a global flood. We know that THAT is impossible and therefore the Bible is wrong....not historical...not fact.
"We know . . . ."? You mean "Some people think . . . ." As long as you realize that the "We" in your sentence above stands not for everyone of intelligence.
I'm willing to bet if they found again Noah's ship in the mountains of Ararat that you and your group of "We" would still find reasons for not believing it. Your group would probably say: Well, it was probably built there by Christians in the middle ages to fool people into thinking the story was true. Or that it isn't really a ship. Or it was some hotel built by the Chinese or Tibetans as a summer resort thousand of years ago. ANYTHING BUT THE TRUTH!!!
The writers of the New Testament believed the historical account of a global flood to be true. They spoke of Noah as being a real person and the global flood as an historical account. In fact if Noah was just a fictitious person then Christ's whole genealogy goes to pot . . . not that you'd care if it did or not since you aren't interested in the truth but rather your own agenda. . . the "We" agenda.
The bible DOES contain some historical facts (names of places and some people, etc), but some of those facts are often cast into the realm of legend and fantasy. For example: Was there an Assyrian army under an Assyrian king by the name of Sennacharib who invaded the land of Judah and besieged the capital city of Jerusalem? Yes. Was Sennacharib's army decimated by angels and sent into a panic because some lepers approached the camp and their footsteps sounded like the rush of a great army??? Pure myth.
Some of the biblical writers, like other ignorant ancient writers of the day, took [possible] actual events and embellished them with a healthy heaping of mythical/superstitious ingredients which were swallowed up by a superstitious audience, many of whom still exist today.
Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 02-21-2011 at 09:04 AM..
Oh please, the dates for the flood are all over the map. So naturally if you don't want to believe the flood occured you choose the date that agrees with you. However, how are you going to explain the recent finding made by the team from China? That large structure just found near the top of Mt. Ararat.
I didn't say the flood didn't happen. I just don't think it was a worldly event. I think it happened in a small area. Also, it's kind of odd that the researchers were looking for it and that they knew right where to find it. It's odd to me that the whole team is of christian faith. I'll bet no scientist that is non religious will be allowed to test it. Therefor the findings are bias. Question is have they found any ancient animal droppings, algae, or anything that solidifies it as a boat? Its shape alone does not mean it was a boat. Also, just because there is no village around does not mean it wasn't an ancient hut. The shape of a boat is a good shape for a building on top a mountain. high winds would rip most building into shreds. A building that is aerodynamic would last longer.
Interesting find none the least. It could be Noah's ark. But that still doesn't prove anything. If the ship really did hold every animal in existence then their would be some evidence to support that, especially with it being stuck in ice.
In the Bible, metaphor is to be taken as metaphor, prophecy as prophecy, symbolism as symbolism, poetry as poetry and historical narrative as historical narrative. The Bible is a book. It is to be understood using the same rules of logic and language as would be the case with understanding any book. Some of the Bible contains prophecy, other parts contain poetry, other parts historical narrative. Is it perhaps too much for me to expect that you would understand this concept? If you will recall, my question to the OP (and still unanswered by the originator of the thread) concerned his assertion of "historical evidence" that contradicts scripture, which is the post you responded to.
...and why do you apparently concur with the assessment of the chronologists? What do you find to be compelling about their argument?
... and which version of "my" Bible would you be referring to? Are you trained and credentialed in the study of Biblical hermeneutics? What is your understanding of the various intricacies involved in interpretation of the old Hebrew text and language usages?
Keep in mind that you are the one jumping out here basically asserting yourself as some sort of Bible expert. I think it only fair for me to expect you to explain your assertions and back them up with evidence. Not all Christians are dedicated "YECers." There is, and has for some time been controversy within the Christian community concerning the nature and extent of the flood described in Genesis.
I just mean that what the bible says about history is very different to what we know about history. Also, anyone can interpret the bible, that is how it is meant to be. If you go to a church in Washington and then a church in Nebraska, the teaching will be slightly different based on what the church leaders interpret. The thing about religion is that everyone has different views on the subject. I wouldn't call myself a christian or anything, but I do read the bible and I do think that there is a higher spiritual being(s) out there.
Examples of history gone wrong in the bible:
How old did people in the old testament live? Wasn't Adam like 900+ years old? Yeah, right.
Didn't Adam name all living things? Why is it that when we find new species we give them a name? Shouldn't we already have a record of this?
Noah's Ark, A flood of that size would be noticeable, even today. We would have more evidence. There could have been a flood, just not as big as the bible says.
That's nice but I hardly see how Paul's writings are a parable for something else. I don't see how Christ's death for all mankind, entombment and resurrection is a parable for something else. Yes, there are some parables in the Bible such as the group of parables Christ spoke concerning the drag net, the importunate widow, the prodigal son, the rich man and lazarus. But when something spoken is a parable we know it is taken to be just that in contrast to what was spoken to be taken literally. Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
You don't see the possible metaphor here?
How about this one. The Crucifixion of Christ symbolized the turmoil (troubles) people experience.
Christs entombment symbolizes the how we are prisoners to our problems and they can claim our lives if not dealt with.
The resurrection, probably the most important part symbolizes the rebirth of the person. When a person has had enough and had learned from their troubles.
Even if I put a Christian spin on it.
Christs Crucifixion symbolizes the sins of man being hung for all to see.
Christs entombment symbolizes putting sins and other bad deeds to rest.
Christs Resurrection symbolized the rise of man from the ashes of their own sin and bad deeds.
Another Christian spin
The Crucifixion, entombment and resurrection of Christ symbolize God's love for mankind. Jesus represents all humans and the rebirth through giving yourself to God. If I recall that is exactly what Christ did on the cross. Commanded his soul to be with God, but not before asking God for forgiveness of all mankind. There is a tone of symbolism here.
The above link is by Dr. E.W. Bullenger on the last twelver verses of Mark.
Mark, huh? Really.
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