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Such as there being no Genesis creation. We know that we evolved from ape-like ancestors, being closely related to chimpanzees (hominid fossil record, DNA, endogenous retroviruses, pseudogenes etc).
Such as there being no Noachian Flood.The survival of Egypt's "Old Kingdom", and the total lack of all the massive geological evidence that a recent worldwide inundation would inevitably leave behind (massive runoff channels, massive water erosion, total disruption of Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheet layers, and so forth).
Such as there being no Tower of Babel (no change in written records after the "confusion of languages"). No evidence of any pre-Babel "common language" in written records, no sign of any post-Babel "confusion of languages".
Such as No Exodus. No trace of the movement of several million people through the Sinai desert, no trace of their supposed encampment at Kadesh Barnea for many years.
Such as no Conquest of Caanan.The Hebrews are Caananites. Their language evolved from Caananite (after the supposed Exodus), and their religion evolved from Caananite polytheism. We know this from Caananite records (notably the Ugaritic texts).
Such as no "Golden Age" of Solomon. This "great empire" was never mentioned in the records of other surrounding civilizations.
Such as the failure of Ezekiel's "Tyre Prophecy" in which Zeke falsely predicted that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon would take and permanently destroy Tyre. But Tyre survived Nebby's 13-year siege. Apologists have sought to cut this prophecy into 2 parts and have Alexander fulfil the second part centuries later (as he DID take Tyre), but this merely creates two failures where there was previously one: Nebby failed to take Tyre as prophesied, Alex failed to permanently destroy Tyre as prophesied.
Such as the failure of Ezekiel's "Egypt Prophecy". After the failure of the Tyre prophecy, Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Historical records show that this did not happen.
Such as the failure of the "Babylon Prophecy" (Isaiah and Jeremiah).Both of these prophesied that the Medes would take and permanently destroy Babylon. But the Medes were conquered by the Persians, who then went on to peacefully take (and not destroy) Babylon.
Such as the numerous historical inaccuracies in Daniel. While Daniel was supposedly written in the 6th century BC, it was actually written four centuries later and gets many details wrong.
Such as the Herod/Quirinius issue. Luke's Jesus born a decade after Matthew's Jesus.
Such as there being no "Massacre of the Innocents". We have accounts from Herod's enemies, describing his various "crimes". The Massacre is not among them. It was invented by Matthew to draw a parallel between Jesus and Moses (who also supposedly survived an infant massacre, by Pharaoh).
Such as there being no "zombie invasion of Jerusalem".The dead supposedly rose from their graves and wandered about in Jerusalem. Numerous historians in the vicinity failed to notice this event, as did all the gospel authors except one: obviously invented.
Would that be enough "Such as" for you to be going on with??
That doesn't answer the timing question, of course, but hey, one thing at a time.
And of course let's not confuse some findings in the bottom of an ancient well-documented but now dry lake- or sea-bed with a 29,000 foot elevation total global inundation. One's easily understandable (the result of plate tectonics and rising land forms over millenia), the other's impossible.
Rafi; it's always good to have some facts provided by a seasoned, accurate and obviously well-read biblical historian. When you couple these factoids with the geological, hydrological, biological and ecological necessities, consequences and impossibilities, it's a slam-dunk-ker-plunk (blub blub...) against Noah's flood (if you'll accept the pun....).
Such as there being no Genesis creation. We know that we evolved from ape-like ancestors, being closely related to chimpanzees (hominid fossil record, DNA, endogenous retroviruses, pseudogenes etc).
Such as there being no Noachian Flood.The survival of Egypt's "Old Kingdom", and the total lack of all the massive geological evidence that a recent worldwide inundation would inevitably leave behind (massive runoff channels, massive water erosion, total disruption of Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheet layers, and so forth).
Such as there being no Tower of Babel (no change in written records after the "confusion of languages"). No evidence of any pre-Babel "common language" in written records, no sign of any post-Babel "confusion of languages".
Such as No Exodus. No trace of the movement of several million people through the Sinai desert, no trace of their supposed encampment at Kadesh Barnea for many years.
Such as no Conquest of Caanan.The Hebrews are Caananites. Their language evolved from Caananite (after the supposed Exodus), and their religion evolved from Caananite polytheism. We know this from Caananite records (notably the Ugaritic texts).
Such as no "Golden Age" of Solomon. This "great empire" was never mentioned in the records of other surrounding civilizations.
Such as the failure of Ezekiel's "Tyre Prophecy" in which Zeke falsely predicted that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon would take and permanently destroy Tyre. But Tyre survived Nebby's 13-year siege. Apologists have sought to cut this prophecy into 2 parts and have Alexander fulfil the second part centuries later (as he DID take Tyre), but this merely creates two failures where there was previously one: Nebby failed to take Tyre as prophesied, Alex failed to permanently destroy Tyre as prophesied.
Such as the failure of Ezekiel's "Egypt Prophecy". After the failure of the Tyre prophecy, Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Historical records show that this did not happen.
Such as the failure of the "Babylon Prophecy" (Isaiah and Jeremiah).Both of these prophesied that the Medes would take and permanently destroy Babylon. But the Medes were conquered by the Persians, who then went on to peacefully take (and not destroy) Babylon.
Such as the numerous historical inaccuracies in Daniel. While Daniel was supposedly written in the 6th century BC, it was actually written four centuries later and gets many details wrong.
Such as the Herod/Quirinius issue. Luke's Jesus born a decade after Matthew's Jesus.
Such as there being no "Massacre of the Innocents". We have accounts from Herod's enemies, describing his various "crimes". The Massacre is not among them. It was invented by Matthew to draw a parallel between Jesus and Moses (who also supposedly survived an infant massacre, by Pharaoh).
Such as there being no "zombie invasion of Jerusalem".The dead supposedly rose from their graves and wandered about in Jerusalem. Numerous historians in the vicinity failed to notice this event, as did all the gospel authors except one: obviously invented.
Would that be enough "Such as" for you to be going on with??
...and if it weren't enough, I'm sure you would be able to conjure up as many as desired. When it comes to personal opinions and the subjectivity of 'evidence,' the number of "such as" examples would be virtually limitless. Are we supposed to be impressed by this?
Notwithstanding, go ahead and pick out the one you think has the most 'evidence' to support your assertion and cite the 'evidence'...that is, if you actually have any 'evidence' to support any of your assertions.
I am also curious as to why the originator of the thread is apparently unable or unwilling to defend the OP.
Notwithstanding, go ahead and pick out the one you think has the most 'evidence' to support your assertion and cite the 'evidence'...that is, if you actually have any 'evidence' to support any of your assertions.
OK, let's start here.
Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation for his failure to destroy Tyre. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Can you point out when Egypt was ever so desolate and wasted that neither man or beast passed through it?
Then perhaps we could go on to this Bible flood which the Bible dates to around 2300 B.C.E. If we look at the list of recorded Egyptian Pharaohs we see........
Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation for his failure to destroy Tyre. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Can you point out when Egypt was ever so desolate and wasted that neither man or beast passed through it?
Then perhaps we could go on to this Bible flood which the Bible dates to around 2300 B.C.E. If we look at the list of recorded Egyptian Pharaohs we see........
Perhaps you could explain how Pepi I managed to reign and live right through the flood period of around 2300 BCE?
I'm going to try to be kind here before I respond and ask once again, are these the best examples containing the absolute best 'evidence' to support your assertion?
...in other words, if these examples are debunked, will you then be willing to admit that you actually have no reason to doubt the basic historical reliability of the Bible?
I'm going to try to be kind here before I respond and ask once again, are these the best examples containing the absolute best 'evidence' to support your assertion?
Oh no, not at all but let's start with them.
Quote:
...in other words, if these examples are debunked, will you then be willing to admit that you actually have no reason to doubt the basic historical reliability of the Bible?
That depends on how you debunk them. If you have verifiable, objective evidence that Egypt WAS a desolate wasteland where no man or beast set foot for 40 years or that PepiI did not reign as Pharaoh but was drowned in a global flood (which of course would mean that
Nemtyemsaf Merenre and Pepi II [the grandson of Pepi1] could not have reigned after him and thus making the whole recorded history of the Egyptian Pharaohs wrong), I'd certainly be willing to consider your evidence.
We don't seem to be connecting here. I am asking you for the absolute best example you have that best supports your assertion.
Either we start there, or there isn't going to be any start. I'm not doing this due to any weird affinity for word games or to chase any limitless number of metaphorical rabbits down purposely concocted innumerable rabbit trails.
Okay...I will interpret this to mean that these examples basically constitute your best shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Ezekiel promised Egypt to Nebby as compensation for his failure to destroy Tyre. Nebby was to ransack Egypt so thoroughly that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. Can you point out when Egypt was ever so desolate and wasted that neither man or beast passed through it?
Referencing Bible prophecy automatically places you on shaky ground. Prophetic passages almost always tend to be symbolic, cryptic and quite often debatable - even among Bible historians and scholars. Essentially, you're simply providing your own personal interpretation of these prophecies. Which scholars agree with you? Which scholars disagree? ...and why should I or anyone else be convinced one way or the other? You're free to correct me, but I don't see anywhere that Nebuchadnezzar was predicted to destroy Egypt to the extent that it would be uninhabited for 40 years. There even is apparent and considerable debate over what the time period of 40 years signifies. Is it to be taken literally or figuratively? Should we accept that this time period and prophecy has already been fulfilled - or is it yet to be fulfilled???
If you truly regard this passage as a primary reason for dismissing the Bible, well, you're most definitely on very shaky ground indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Then perhaps we could go on to this Bible flood which the Bible dates to around 2300 B.C.E. If we look at the list of recorded Egyptian Pharaohs we see........
Perhaps you could explain how Pepi I managed to reign and live right through the flood period of around 2300 BCE?
Specifically, where does the Bible date the flood to 2300 BC? Secondly and perhaps more importantly, why are you of the apparent opinion that the flood was a world wide event?
The Bible is not historical fact, but fiction; and there is nothing confusing in that when history is re-written so often to enable the factual realities to develop into the natural state of a personal progress. Take the coal industry. It used to be an enlightening one for farmers in the Appalachians. Now there is too broad a geographical base for knowledge of transportation, means of transportation and communication, and chemically engineered life-styles in the neighbourhood of just minded citizens.
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