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View Poll Results: Who are you voting for in the 2016 general election?
Hillary Clinton 40 43.48%
Donald Trump 34 36.96%
Gary Johnson 9 9.78%
Jill Stein 3 3.26%
Other 6 6.52%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-23-2016, 04:08 PM
 
16,345 posts, read 18,063,833 times
Reputation: 7879

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
I thought we'd at least make it past the first page before the arguments started.
Eh, it's a political discussion. Most of them are far worse than this. Have you been to the actual political page here? It's a total cesspool.
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Old 06-23-2016, 04:33 PM
 
16,345 posts, read 18,063,833 times
Reputation: 7879
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjimmy24 View Post
Well bro, my opinions about Clinton and Trump are opinions. They are not "true" or "false." Yes, I think they are basically equally bad for the country, perhaps in different ways, but still equally bad. And don't act a fool here- you clearly brought up Trump after my post. I don't know why else you would have done that if you weren't accusing me of being a Trump supporter. Incredibly dishonest here. Again. Come on.

Also, show me where I used the word "debt." Who is being dishonest? Like, I said, I can't have a talk about monetary policy (for the clueless among the readers, not the same thing as "Debt") because you just don't have any idea what I'm talking about. Instead of getting defensive, at least first acknowledge that you have some reading to do before engaging.

You just don't follow ANYTHING I say (never have, probably never will), you just go immediately to your strawmen and your feels. As I've said before, would love to have a conversation. You are the one stopping this from happening. Good grief. Continue the self-righteousness though. You are so persecuted.

I know for the simple minded, it's hard to believe that all political ideology isn't found on the notecard of allowable left-right opinion. Instead of trying to label me as anything, or assume you know where I'm going, try listening. You'd learn a lot.

All opinions are not created equal, though, especially when they are on things that can be proven true or false. If I said my opinion was that we didn't land on the moon, would that be an opinion based on fact or belief? It's the same case here. One candidate's economic proposals would contribute far more to the nation's debt problem than the other, and that's just for starters. That's not an opinion, that is fact based on economic realities. Economics, though, is the just beginning of how they're factually different, and I have already brought up some of the others. At worst, Hillary would probably be a lot like Obama domestically, though probably take more of a hardline approach in terms of military action. A lot of people continue to talk about Hillary's honesty, though rarely can they ever come up with actual specific lies. Regardless, if we are going to judge political candidates based on honesty, we'd probably never elect anyone. All candidates have lied. All presidents have lied. All people have lied. We all have that much in common, so for me, it's just not the big deal it is for others.
However, not everyone is a racist. Not everyone is a narcissist. Not everyone has authoritarian tendencies. We all don't have those things in common with Trump. So yeah, Hillary isn't perfect. She's probably told a lot of lies in her life. Maybe she didn't follow proper protocol with emails, who knows. She's probably taken money from big interests like just about everyone else in Washington. It's naive to think that she hasn't, honestly. And if you think those are things that are bad enough for you to not support her, that is certainly your right and choice. You are free to vote for whomever you want, including Trump should he ultimately be the official nominee. Being as stats guy, though, I like to deal with probability, numbers and rational facts, and hence I tend to look at things through a proportional lens. Hillary, for me is the easy choice, because she is proportionally far less of a threat to the economic and social status of the US than Trump is, despite her character flaws. But also, as both a rational and empathetic human being, I find Trump's rhetoric very disturbing. It makes me angry, and I direct that anger at both Trump and his supporters (and to the GOP in general for allowing a candidate like him to rise within its ranks and basically being completely unrecognizeable from the party they once were). I don't hate immigrants or Muslims or gays or or racial minorities. I don't think they're ruining the country and I think any policy regarding them should be rational, fair and compassionate- because they are people and because I think the US is still one of the greatest nations to ever exist, and I believe we are better than that.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
14,682 posts, read 14,648,352 times
Reputation: 15410
I'm not going to tell anyone who they should/should not vote for, but if anyone sees Donald Trump other than a narcissistic egomaniac, they're deluding themselves. He's not "shaking things up" for the betterment of the country, he's doing everything for personal glory, because that's who he is to the core.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:47 AM
 
16,345 posts, read 18,063,833 times
Reputation: 7879
BTW guys, what is happening in Europe is an excellent example of what happens when you embrace nationalism like Trump is all about. The UK will very likely be no more very soon, and the EU is likely to follow. This is very bad news for all involved, especially economically, and it represents the rise of something we have not seen there since WWII. It's getting scary out there.
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:07 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 1,985,284 times
Reputation: 3487
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Cruz wants to turn the US into a theocracy and was the primary architect of the recent govenment shutdowns so he could score points with anti-government nuts, just for starters. He is an total extremist. How is this better?


Vaguely, the suggestion of "fixing immigration and trade deals" is all well and good until you actually get into the details of what he wants to do. His immigration policy is incredibly racist and against the very heart of America as an immigrant nation, and his economic policies are pretty much universally agreed upon that they would bring about economic disaster. The man suggested it would be cool to default on the nation's debt with no serious domestic or global consequences. He has a fundamental lack of understanding on this and so many other issues. Clinton, for all her flaws, would at least be rational, and the world needs that desperately these days.
Cruz isn't an extremist, he's a Christian. Having a President that understands the importance of doing the right thing morally would have been nice for a change, rather than having an egomaniac in the White House like we do now, and almost always have. The country had a unique opportunity and blew it.

As for his filibuster, he had an agreement with Harry Reid when he'd start and finish it. He started speaking in the afternoon, continued through the night as you might recall and finished early enough for the Senate to conduct business the morning after he started, While he talked to members in the House it was their stance to stand up to Obama. Unfortunately, Boehner wasn't willing to stand up to the President and let him walk all over him. I would argue it was Obama that shut down the government by not being willing to compromise. It worked out for him since Boehner backed down, which Democrats would not have done if the roles had been reversed.

Trump's position on immigration isn't racist at all. A President's job is to do the bidding of the American people, not for foreigners who have come in illegally stealing jobs and overwhelming and wrecking communities. And certainly not for foreigners who don't share our values, just the opposite in fact. They believe they have a duty to convert us to Islam or kill us. What don't you understand about that? The Orlando mass killing never happens if the terrorist's parents hadn't been allowed to come to this country. That type of evil thinking is passed down from generation to generation as part of their religious beliefs. It is what it is. You can bury your head in the sand if you want, but I choose to see things for what they are.

While I'm no fan of Trump others have given me options of Clinton or Trump, so I had to decide on Trump hoping he keeps his promises. Clinton nominating Supreme Court justices is a scary proposition. It's bad enough we have four activist judges on their already.
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:15 AM
 
2,920 posts, read 1,985,284 times
Reputation: 3487
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
BTW guys, what is happening in Europe is an excellent example of what happens when you embrace nationalism like Trump is all about. The UK will very likely be no more very soon, and the EU is likely to follow. This is very bad news for all involved, especially economically, and it represents the rise of something we have not seen there since WWII. It's getting scary out there.
You may not understand what's been happening in England. Mass immigration that has caused many problems. The citizens got tired of it, and tired of unelected politicians in Brussels making decisions for them that they disagree with.

I always felt the EU was dangerous in the sense it could create tensions between countries within it that could lead to the next European war. It was wise of the British to vote to get out.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,054 posts, read 12,452,032 times
Reputation: 10385
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
All opinions are not created equal, though, especially when they are on things that can be proven true or false. If I said my opinion was that we didn't land on the moon, would that be an opinion based on fact or belief? It's the same case here. One candidate's economic proposals would contribute far more to the nation's debt problem than the other, and that's just for starters. That's not an opinion, that is fact based on economic realities. Economics, though, is the just beginning of how they're factually different, and I have already brought up some of the others. At worst, Hillary would probably be a lot like Obama domestically, though probably take more of a hardline approach in terms of military action. A lot of people continue to talk about Hillary's honesty, though rarely can they ever come up with actual specific lies. Regardless, if we are going to judge political candidates based on honesty, we'd probably never elect anyone. All candidates have lied. All presidents have lied. All people have lied. We all have that much in common, so for me, it's just not the big deal it is for others.
However, not everyone is a racist. Not everyone is a narcissist. Not everyone has authoritarian tendencies. We all don't have those things in common with Trump. So yeah, Hillary isn't perfect. She's probably told a lot of lies in her life. Maybe she didn't follow proper protocol with emails, who knows. She's probably taken money from big interests like just about everyone else in Washington. It's naive to think that she hasn't, honestly. And if you think those are things that are bad enough for you to not support her, that is certainly your right and choice. You are free to vote for whomever you want, including Trump should he ultimately be the official nominee. Being as stats guy, though, I like to deal with probability, numbers and rational facts, and hence I tend to look at things through a proportional lens. Hillary, for me is the easy choice, because she is proportionally far less of a threat to the economic and social status of the US than Trump is, despite her character flaws. But also, as both a rational and empathetic human being, I find Trump's rhetoric very disturbing. It makes me angry, and I direct that anger at both Trump and his supporters (and to the GOP in general for allowing a candidate like him to rise within its ranks and basically being completely unrecognizeable from the party they once were). I don't hate immigrants or Muslims or gays or or racial minorities. I don't think they're ruining the country and I think any policy regarding them should be rational, fair and compassionate- because they are people and because I think the US is still one of the greatest nations to ever exist, and I believe we are better than that.
I prefer not to beg and grovel at the feet of people who don't know me and don't care about me. If you want to live a pathetic illusion, go ahead.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:39 PM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,823,172 times
Reputation: 8442
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioJB View Post
You may not understand what's been happening in England. Mass immigration that has caused many problems. The citizens got tired of it, and tired of unelected politicians in Brussels making decisions for them that they disagree with.

I always felt the EU was dangerous in the sense it could create tensions between countries within it that could lead to the next European war. It was wise of the British to vote to get out.
The UK leaving the EU will cause a split of the UK in my opinion. Scotland voted to stay in the EU and narrowly voted against leaving the UK last time around. Due to the split in votes over the EU, Scotland will more than likely split with the UK. The conflicts in regards to Northern Ireland will rear their heads again. Ireland itself majority supported the EU and may attempt to leave the UK.

Many companies will see the uncertainties in the UK and leave the UK causing economic issues for the country. IMO it is not a good thing. Immigration as a topic in a country can always be worked on by any political party.

It is dangerous to view it as some sort of scourge and act like there are no solutions when there are solutions that don't cause drastic economic fluctuations to occur in an already precarious economy.

No matter how much people don't like that we are a global community, in effect we really are and our economic systems today will falter without a broad outreach across the world.

I'm worried for the UK. I have friends who are expats who live there and they are worried about losing their jobs/livelihoods as some work for companies that have been rumored to be looking to re-locate if the vote went the way it did.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,054 posts, read 12,452,032 times
Reputation: 10385
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioJB View Post
You may not understand what's been happening in England. Mass immigration that has caused many problems. The citizens got tired of it, and tired of unelected politicians in Brussels making decisions for them that they disagree with.

I always felt the EU was dangerous in the sense it could create tensions between countries within it that could lead to the next European war. It was wise of the British to vote to get out.
Biggest thing for me is how idiotic it is that unelected officials in Brussels manage minute details of peaceful citizens' lives. Just on principle- how is that justifiable, and why is that not a good reason to want to leave the EU?

And yes, having a union of different countries under the same massive regulatory umbrella certainly does create tensions, not diffuse them. It's a dangerous game.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland and Columbus OH
11,054 posts, read 12,452,032 times
Reputation: 10385
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
The UK leaving the EU will cause a split of the UK in my opinion. Scotland voted to stay in the EU and narrowly voted against leaving the UK last time around. Due to the split in votes over the EU, Scotland will more than likely split with the UK. The conflicts in regards to Northern Ireland will rear their heads again. Ireland itself majority supported the EU and may attempt to leave the UK.

Many companies will see the uncertainties in the UK and leave the UK causing economic issues for the country. IMO it is not a good thing. Immigration as a topic in a country can always be worked on by any political party.

It is dangerous to view it as some sort of scourge and act like there are no solutions when there are solutions that don't cause drastic economic fluctuations to occur in an already precarious economy.

No matter how much people don't like that we are a global community, in effect we really are and our economic systems today will falter without a broad outreach across the world.

I'm worried for the UK. I have friends who are expats who live there and they are worried about losing their jobs/livelihoods as some work for companies that have been rumored to be looking to re-locate if the vote went the way it did.
I encourage Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, and anyone else to exercise self-determination. Unlike some on here, who prefer that you shut up and get in line.
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