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We did a lot of consulting work in Blackfoot and Idaho, they are a bunch of bigots, we are American Italian's from New Yorl, lots of mafica BS and remarks, if your not LDS don't live there was out in 70's extended stay and back in 80's same bull!
Being Italian I have never seen this sort of stuff... I've spent alot of times in IF working with a knife company there... In fact we almost moved there several years ago.. LDS are some of the nicest folks I know too...
Being Italian I have never seen this sort of stuff... I've spent alot of times in IF working with a knife company there... In fact we almost moved there several years ago.. LDS are some of the nicest folks I know too...
Heck, Priest River was settled by Italian immigrants and anyone who is anyone here has a name like Naccarato, Veltri, Bombino, Anselmo, Saccomano,etc. No discrimination here if your last name ends in a vowel.
Really, I notice that, primarily, discrimination or danger is really based on being out of place with the socioeconomic class you project. In a lower class neighborhood, a person who looks like they're on their way to an elite social gathering should probably keep their doors locked and be ready to get the heck out of dodge. In an upper class neighborhood, a person who looks like they just stepped off a railcar on their way to nowhere should probably be prepared to talk to the police and be told to leave the area or go to jail. Race could play a small part in each person's odds of coming out of that situation a bit better off than another race, but the motives of those who bring them bad fortune will still be provoked regardless of race. A person of the same class as others but a different race can often get by with getting felt out at first, and then integrated into the group once it's concluded that their socioeconomic similarities allow them to relate.
Ultimately, there is unfortunately a lot of sound judgment in the decision to be wary when you're the fish out of water. Having lived in Albuquerque and Las Vegas after Boise, plus regularly travelling to DC, Chicago, Miami, and Dallas, I've found that there are indeed neighborhoods where certain races are tacitly - at times, explicitly - unwelcome and certain classes find themselves in a real predicament. As I stated in my prior post, the OP's apprehension was perfectly warranted, especially since he knew how to go about an understanding way of posing the question. Better too paranoid than too naive, I always say. In the event either are wrong, the former will just be silly while the latter could be devastating.
For all fish out of water, it's really just important to remember to stay "cool" so your fear doesn't get projected and become a self-fulfilling prophecy. All humans have social instincts at play that make us interpret a fearful disposition as either an impending threat or a rewarding victim, depending on our own beliefs/ethics/disposition and how we associate ourselves in contrast with the other person.
f idaho its a seth pool of anti this anti that you wouldnt beleive the storeis of heard from people bitching and whining about californian's minorities and that why the cowards ran to hide in idaho i ve talked to em and its the most cowardist thing i ever seen Im from montana but have lived in the bay area and still visit quite often other than bien crowded on th roads i actually like it better than idaho god made this old world for all of us to live in peacefully and with eacjh other and the interracial areas will always excell better and fatser than plcaes like idaho and by the way im part german sicclialn and my best part indian. Idahos like orgeon nothing there but trees more trees and more treees no big snow caps no big cities to marvel at like the san fran buetiful city with the bridges and the ways its set up napa valley isway way out but only 30 miles away i dont feel californian a thats bad unless you live downtown la as a bum hahaha
f idaho its a seth pool of anti this anti that you wouldnt beleive the storeis of heard from people bitching and whining about californian's minorities and that why the cowards ran to hide in idaho i ve talked to em and its the most cowardist thing i ever seen Im from montana but have lived in the bay area and still visit quite often other than bien crowded on th roads i actually like it better than idaho god made this old world for all of us to live in peacefully and with eacjh other and the interracial areas will always excell better and fatser than plcaes like idaho and by the way im part german sicclialn and my best part indian. Idahos like orgeon nothing there but trees more trees and more treees no big snow caps no big cities to marvel at like the san fran buetiful city with the bridges and the ways its set up napa valley isway way out but only 30 miles away i dont feel californian a thats bad unless you live downtown la as a bum hahaha
Hmmm... okay then... the most well-founded part of this post is the grammar and style.
And okay, I've also gotta agree that our cohabitation on this planet does seem to pack some sort of self-evident implication that we ought to learn to live peacefully. Always funny to me the type of people who try to shoot that particular premise down.
Oh, and the bay area is beautiful.
On a serious note, though, you have no place judging the intent/motives of people who enjoy Idaho and choose to move to Idaho, you've demonstrated no credibility to conclude what constitutes "excell"ing in any arena, and your description of the scenery is just as audaciously ignorant as if I was dumb enough to say Cali is just a bunch of smog, granola, and pitbulls. Seriously, that's the kind of ridiculous person I picture typing behind some of your statements. And Idaho has many cities that are very well laid out and beautiful from both streets and overlooks. And no snow caps in ID? That last one makes me question if you're even serious.
So much of Idaho's scenery is awesome, I have to wonder if you flew from Cali to MT on a cloudy day or what?
Also, I usually don't come down on grammar/spelling, as making a point is of much more value than sounding educated on your end or being pompous on my end, but at points other than those to which I responded, I have no idea what you're saying. Combined with your love of prejudiced stereotypes and geographical ignorance, I just can't help myself.
f idaho its a seth pool of anti this anti that you wouldnt beleive the storeis of heard from people bitching and whining about californian's minorities and that why the cowards ran to hide in idaho i ve talked to em and its the most cowardist thing i ever seen Im from montana but have lived in the bay area and still visit quite often other than bien crowded on th roads i actually like it better than idaho god made this old world for all of us to live in peacefully and with eacjh other and the interracial areas will always excell better and fatser than plcaes like idaho and by the way im part german sicclialn and my best part indian. Idahos like orgeon nothing there but trees more trees and more treees no big snow caps no big cities to marvel at like the san fran buetiful city with the bridges and the ways its set up napa valley isway way out but only 30 miles away i dont feel californian a thats bad unless you live downtown la as a bum hahaha
Dang, my eyes grew weary trying to read your post. What happened to correct spelling and punctuation? You stated that you are from Montana, where is the big city there to marvel at? The extended Boise Metro trade area has more people than the entire state of Montana. Oregon doesn't have a big city either? Did Portland cease to exist?
Pocatello, Moscow and Boise have relatively high concentrations of Blacks as well due to the major colleges being in those cities and in turn attracts some Black students/athletes and staff as well. I believe you might see some in places like Lewiston, Idaho Falls, Caldwell and Twin Falls too.
When the pundits mention prejudice and racism in Idaho, they are often referring to the North Idaho Panhandle. They are remembering the 1992 debacle at Ruby Ridge and the 1999 Aryan Nations compound in the Coeur d'Alene area.
With Ruby Ridge to the north of Sandpoint and the former Aryan Nations to the south, visitors often quiz locals about the perception of racism and extremism in North Idaho. Panhandle citizens are at times surprised by the questions. To many that live in artistic, eclectic North Idaho, the questions seem out of place with the area they have come to know as tolerant and neighborly. Most intolerant areas drive visitors and new inhabitants away; Sandpoint and North Idaho attracts with a booming tourist industry and fast-paced growth, and its reputation for accepting one and all.
I am originally from New Orleans, certainly a majority black city. Most of my friends were black, both then and subsequently in the army. Here, we have people of color visit, and from cultures all over the world. While I cannot speak to how anyone is treated in southern Idaho, in our neck of the woods, tolerance is par for the course.
North Idaho has long been a magnet for spirited people with vastly varying lifestyles and views. Long before the current influx of people and tourists came the hippies. Artist Ed Keinholz made Hope, Idaho his home in 1978, and soon afterward North Idaho became known as an artist colony. While the state has consistently voted Republican in national presidential elections, North Idaho has more mixed political leanings. Obama signs were everywhere during the last election. Perhaps only Moscow, with its collegiate influences, has the same political outlooks.
The questions persist in spite of local views. National coverage is beginning to show North Idaho in a different light, but Ruby Ridge is revisited in documentaries and news coverage year after year. Controversy continues over the handling by the ATF with the arrest of Randy Weaver in 1992. Randy Weaver moved from Iowa with his family to northern Idaho during the 1980s in order to "home-school his children and escape what he and his wife Vicki saw as a corrupted world." This is a common theme for many moving to the area. Like many who move here, they were looking for an area far-removed from their neighbors to teach their children the lessons they felt important. This is often a goal for many teaching racist ideals.
Idaho can be remote. Some estimates place up to 75 percent of the land in North Idaho in federal or state hands. The U.S. Census published only 15.6 people inhabit each square mile in Idaho, compared to the national average of 79.6. Bonner County has slightly more with 21 people per sq. mile, but Boundary County with only 8 has one of the lowest numbers in the state. Extremists look for such counts when choosing an area to relocate to.
Add to that demographic the homogenous make-up of North Idaho. With a population over 95 percent white, racists have found the area alluring in the past. Many residents say that prejudice does not even come into their minds. Jed Sigman, owner of Advance Childcare, one of Bonner County's largest daycares, says, "We aren't like the south where prejudice is a part of daily life. We didn't grow up even seeing blacks or Hispanics. The thought of hating a person for their skin color just didn't even occur to us."
When asked about the Aryan Nations in the Coeur d'Alene area, Sandpoint resident Jaime Grainger stated bluntly, "We kicked those bums out years ago." The Aryan Nations compound was effectively put out of business in Hayden, Idaho in 2000 when the Southern Poverty Law Center won a $6.3 million judgment against the group. They still operate, but not as openly as a decade ago. The founder of the Aryan Nations, Richard Butler, moved to Idaho from California, but it has been reported that his followers have relocated to Pennsylvania?
While that group has moved on, Aryan Nations “pastors” distributed recruitment literature in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho and vowed to reestablish a “world headquarters” in the area again in early 2009.
Many do move here, sans prejudice, to live a more natural life with greater privacy. Idahoans pride themselves on the values of privacy and personal freedom. In an unusual coalition, state GOP members and the ACLU joined forces to modify or defeat the Patriot Act, which many here feel intrude on their ideals of personal privacy. In Congress, Republican Governor Butch Otter was mostly conservative, but showed slight libertarian leanings, as reflected in his opposition to the Patriot Act. Other state Republicans shared this view. The Idaho GOP platform plank in 2004 made the issue clear: "The Patriot Act is necessary to facilitate the cooperation between law enforcement agencies. We support appropriate amendments to limit the incursion upon personal freedoms, rights, and liberties of American citizens."Other Idaho Republicans have also been vocal in their opposition to the Patriot Act.
The reasons are varied, but among other arguments, Idaho enjoys gun laws that allow carry permits, and hunting is one of the big draws to the state. The fear among many gun owners in Idaho is that the Patriot Act will lead to a lessening of gun ownership rights.
Guns are important here. Guns are the reason Randy Weaver was targeted by the ATF. After selling two sawed-off shotguns to a government informant, the ATF attempted to arrest Weaver. Weaver maintained the shotguns were not illegal, and in the ensuing standoff, both Weaver's son and wife were killed. With strong views of personal liberties and privacy prevalent in the area, many local residents feel the government was the real villain at Ruby Ridge, and local opinions have been broadcast over the national airwaves for years. With such opinions part of the myth presented to the rest of America, the nation gets a picture that North Idaho is not a tolerant region. However, the subsequent investigation showed the ATF in a poor light. This, combined with other national fiascos in Waco and other areas, has ameliorated opinions.
Randy Weaver was not a native Idahoan. As the population grows, natives are becoming a smaller majority. While most of North Idaho welcomes visitors and newcomers, many find the changes distasteful. Some of the loudest against change are not originally from Idaho. There are many groups against various points of growth in North Idaho. NICAN, a group that opposes the proposed Sand Creek Byway, has over 250 members, many who came to North Idaho from other states. This is patently distasteful to some that grew up locally. One home-grown inhabitant of Sagle, Idaho complained, "It's not that I don't want them to be politically active, I just would like to see people from here be the ones that make the decisions. I don't like it that they bring their attitudes from California or Oregon and try to make us just like the place they wanted to get away from."
Other long-time residents remember wistfully how idyllic the area was just ten or fifteen years ago. Jeane Fontaine, owner of Packages Plus in Sandpoint remembers wistfully, "It sure was great here ten or fifteen years ago. I mean, growth is good, but Sandpoint was such a nice small town. It's still pretty nice, but it was paradise then."
The influx of former policemen like Mark Furman retiring to the area is also pointed out as a sign that the area is racist. "Absurd!" said one former LA County Sheriff. "We came here to get away from racism and crime. After twenty years working in Los Angeles, where you see racism every day, we wanted to find a haven where we would never see it again."
How is racism handled in our schools?
One school in Twin Falls uses this lesson for elementary age children. To teach how racism feels to those that suffer from prejudice and segregation, approximately 200 fifth graders at Summit Elementary School in Twin Falls, Idaho are randomly assigned the color green or yellow. Not allowed to speak to classmates of another color, the point is further reinforced by segregating bathrooms. For the first time in 16 years, in February 2008, a parent complained.
Literally dozens of articles on the web have recently accused Planned Parenthood of Idaho of blatant racism, though to believe everything posted on Google takes a leap of faith. In 2008, when a southern Idaho radio talk show broadcast inflammatory racist comments, dozens of blogs sprang up to denounce the show and speaker. Typical of one such blog, the blogger wrote, "racist comments have no place on public airwaves and no place in our communities."
Recent years indicates a decline in hate crimes in Idaho. The Idaho State Police published in 2003 that there were 20 such incidents, down 54 percent from the previous year, and in 2005 hate crimes totaled 27 incidents, 20 in 2006, and 38 in 2007. These hate crimes do not limit themselves to acts against blacks or Hispanics. In 2007, an American Indian girl was beaten by an adult woman who shouted "white power," then the girl was subsequently harassed for the next several days by the woman's sons. According to statistics, hate crimes directed at Native Americans are as prevalent as against any other group in Idaho.
Skin color does often prompt attacks, however, with comparatively low numbers reported, many back up the premise that prejudice in North Idaho is not readily apparent. One blogger writes, "I'm olive-skinned rather than brown-skinned. I've lived in North Idaho (if you toss Lewiston into that mix) for 25 years. I've experienced only one touch of prejudice in all that time -- from a clueless dentist in Lewiston (1983) who kept making reference to my 'Italian' heritage."
Other states with similar populations have similar numbers, and some states with smaller populations, such as Vermont with a reputation for liberalism and tolerance, have higher incidences of hate crimes. North Idaho has comparatively few hate crimes. In 2006, one incident was reported in Boundary County, two in Kootenai, and none in Bonner County. Most were reported in southern Idaho.
In 2006, after 29 years of debate, neighboring Washington adopted a law barring discrimination in the workplace and in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. Idaho has still not adopted such a law.
As recently as February 2007, guest columnist Ryan West penned an article in the University of Idaho newspaper, The Argonaut, titled: Racism a reality in most of North Idaho. While still in high school in North Idaho, Ryan remembers "hearing the words "n--r" and "f--t" used in every other sentence by male and female students." He also writes, "I know that some people will read this and think 'Well I grew up around there, and I never experienced that type of behavior.' That's fine. They're either fortunate or oblivious."
White supremacists literature is still mailed out to North Idaho residents from time to time, though less frequently than in years past. The last mass mailing in Bonner went out to 6,000 residents in 1999. Though the mailings now are less in number and not as often, locals still receive them.
As the more tolerant attitudes become part and parcel of local living, those with extremist views have become less vocal espousing their opinions. There is no way to know how many people are truly racist in North Idaho. However, controversies such as local growth and the Sand Creek Byway have brought very derogatory attacks and even lawsuits. If lack of tolerance for other's views is the indicator, then perhaps irrational suspicions are part of North Idaho lore. On the other hand, one reason racism and extremism becomes part of any community is that people are silent against intolerance. North Idaho has healthy debate over many subjects. Education is ongoing, and people do speak out against injustice.
Racism seems to be slowly dying in the rest of the nation, and North Idaho is no different. While it may exist here, one rarely hears the 'n' word spoken in public. Most people I know would stand up against any person brave enough to rant racist views in open forum. Perhaps my circle just does not come into contact with that circle often enough to know if racism is truly a problem in North Idaho.
Is racism alive in North Idaho? Perhaps, but, as visitors often remind us, it is not accepted by the rest of the nation, and should not be tolerated by we who live in North Idaho, even if we are believers in personal privacy and liberties. With the recent presidential election having the first viable female and black presidential candidates, certainly few would say that times have not changed greatly. Racism is alive in America, and certainly has reared its ugly head in North Idaho, but it has been fought both through governmental processes and in the court of public opinion.
North Idaho is a paradise as much for its people as for its natural beauty. Prejudice and racism detract from the soul of the people who live in North Idaho. Perhaps these attitudes are on the wane, but without constant vigilance against those that advocate hate, it will continue to be part of the myth of North Idaho.
It Feels Like We Have An Elephant in the Room - and I'm Opening That Door....
gpltlc,
That was a well-written post.
It seems to me that those of us who post in the Idaho Forum a lot know we have an elephant in the room. I think it is time to make that fact known and offer my own PERSONAL observation, while encouraging those who question to use the SEARCH feature and show me posts where I'm inaccurate.
It's fine with me if I'm wrong (if someone produces a post or two that show a differing view than my own); actually part of how this discussion got lengthened if one looks back to Page 1 or 2 and when typical me had three things going on at once a wrote the GA Bulldogs Coach's name wrong. I was politely updated by a fellow forumer who appeared to understand what I was attempting to communicate. No problem from me, I appreciated his interest in my post. I'm all for accuracy, not rumors or beliefs that what happens in 2009 is identical to 1989, 1999 or even 2005 everywhere in Idaho.
From my perspective, we have a wonderful moderator in the Idaho Forum. It just so happens he lives in Northern Idaho and is a retired Law Enforcement Officer from So Cal. For all I know, his parents may have taken him from CA through NID every summer to visit Canada or National Parks or just escape the heat. I really don't know how Sage was introduced to NID and it really does not matter to me.
What does matter to me is the tremendous restraint and strength I've seen in Sage, during a summer of many posts about NID and racism etc. Sage, has worn a uniform, many define as a calling or family tradition in their life, while dealing with people of many races yelling threating remarks at him or make an obscene gesture to him, in his years of service I find it absolutely amazing that Sage doesn't "micro-manage" repeated forums and questions about NID, in the Idaho Forum. Let me explain that remark by an example of what can happen in CDF.
There's another FORUM where I'm a regular. Recently, to my delight Broken Crayola showed up in probably my most favorite thread in that Forum. (Gotta get back there B.C. - so much to post in the one thread ). A different thread, in the same FORUM, found Sandpointain posting a couple of comments in a thread I've posted hundreds of comments. Great, it was a surprise to see each B.C. and S. post where I was use to reading posts primarily from those in the Northeast, TX and FL and abroad. It was nice see names more familiar to me in those threads.
Anyone can post in that forum and many have. So the moderators tend to remind us more than I've seen in any forum I visit, how some topics should be condensed and no new threads started about something that is buried 2-4 pages down. They reinforce that by saying if they believe the new thread isn't an original idea/question etc., they'll condense it or remove it and remind people to look to older pages. I've seen it done in that forum.
Conversely, when the subject of Northern Idaho and the actions of people from the past, comes up as often as it does in new threads, I have NEVER seen Sage remove a new thread because the issue of racism or retired cops in NID was being asked again.
Actually, Sage removed (ok, redirected) one of my new threads, which I wrote based on this very issue. While I can't remember the exact title, I asked how far back should new posters search for a similar-themed thread before writing another? Is two years old too old etc. I was getting tired that year of seeing repeated new threads that were asking the same question, and most with little to NO research done prior to writing the post.
In fairness to Sage, let me explain he moved my thread to a more administrative area as he felt the question of when to write a new post vs. read what others had updated from previous posts, was bigger than just an Idaho Forum issue. Plus, it is also a moderator issue. In no way did I feel he was being unfair as HE posted why he was moving my thread. I don't know if I had started a new thread in the other forum where the moderators reinforce often they won't tolerate repeat threads, and mine had been removed, that I would have gotten an explanation of what I missed when I searched for similar threads or to what area it was moved.
This post is not about me, it is about Sage. My general impression is most who write in the Idaho Forum believe he is fair and thinks before he acts or posts. I'm amazed at the restraint he shows when people from around the world ask repeatedly about North Idaho, retired L.A. cops, and events from the past. I don't think I could be as levelheaded, day after day of reading the same posts. Especially, when HE (to the best of my knowledge) was not guilty of any of the stated disrespect of others etc. some write about in new posts.
I do believe the OP of this particular thread was very well written and included all of Idaho. This particular thread should be a keeper, IMHO. I don't perceive the OP as someone who wants to visit or move to Idaho to become local law enforcement's latest nightmare. I also see the OP as a person with an open mind who is offering trust, if we'll confirm it is safe to trust us. Or, where to stay away from in Idaho, if his safety were going to be an issue due to race.
Just so everyone is clear, Sage doesn't know I've written this. I might get a DM that says, "Don't ever do THAT AGAIN," from him. But, he'll let this post remain, unless I've somehow accidentally and unintentionally made someone less safe by writing what I've written. In no way has he asked me to write this or try to help some understand that ex L.A. Cops aren't always what one reads or hears about them.
So I've opened the door and floor now to anyone who wants to post additional views. This doesn't change anything I wrote earlier, simply that I believe some respect needs to be given to Sage to let countless people probably visiting the Idaho Forum for the first time, writing additional posts about how others are accepted in Idaho. Probably, one wouldn't have to go past page 3 here to find a similar theme, although I do believe the OP had a broader issue in mind here and I think it was a well-worded post.
I want to be clear and say I think these issues should be discussed. I don't know if we need 10 new threads each summer with variations of theme to do it, but that isn't my decision. I also think it is time for those outside of Idaho to know a very tolerant, patient and caring ex-L.A. Cop volunteers his time to moderate this forum. If that knowledge makes someone uncomfortable, then Idaho probably isn't the best place to relocate to as lots of ex-cops and other professions volunteer their time to give back to their new home. To the best of my knowledge, Sage just stays out of these discussions.
One point I do want to add is I don't think it is totally coincidence of where Idaho is located from L.A. that it is a natural area for retired cops to want to move to the Gem State. On the eastern shores of the U.S., ex- NYC cops often move to the Carolinas, TN or FL because they want warmer living or smaller populations or both, while still some of the cultures/traditions of being in that eastern side of the U.S. CA and ID are two of the western 10 states. Looking at a map or a little geography lesson helps occassionally in wondering why certain "groups" relocate where they do.
Let the discussion continue, but please, let's include Sage and acknowledge that ex-L.A. cops can love nature, even a colder climate, living among fewer people, want their kids to have the opportunities while ensuring their kids learn to work to earn their living vs. manipulating a system to give them a living etc. In others words, the ex-L.A. cops here want what most of us here want and I don't think Sage is any different than others.
If only all moderators had been taught the patience and other skills Sage uses here for our good, some forums could be better on CDF, IMHO.
Thanks for your work, Sage, especially when sometimes your "work," has required you to stay out of discussions. Despite the times I'm tired of these new threads asking similar questions to those from last week or three weeks ago etc.. I can only guess how it is for you.
It looks like a Black man is not even safe in a Black neighborhood in Chicago. You would never see this kind of activity in Idaho, people here love and respect each other too much.
But a corrupt city like Chicago? Where is their love?
When I see stuff like this take place in our nations largest cities it makes me realize that I am blessed to live in Idaho.
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so your fear doesn't get projected and become a self-fulfilling prophecy. All humans have social instincts at play that make us interpret a fearful disposition as either an impending threat or a rewarding victim, depending on our own beliefs/ethics/disposition and how we associate ourselves in contrast with the other person.
A reputation from events 10 and 19 years ago...
It Feels Like We Have An Elephant in the Room - and I'm Opening That Door....
). A different thread, in the same FORUM, found Sandpointain posting a couple of comments in a thread I've posted hundreds of comments. Great, it was a surprise to see each B.C. and S. post where I was use to reading posts primarily from those in the Northeast, TX and FL and abroad. It was nice see names more familiar to me in those threads.
