Streetcar skeptic to believer (Cincinnati, Hamilton: transfer to, neighborhoods, organic)

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by motorman

Nearly two-billion dollars...

"We are experiencing tremendous resurgence throughout the urban core," City Manager Harry Black told WCPO, "especially in Downtown and Over-the-Rhine along the Cincinnati Bell Connector route."

From 9WCPO:
*Cincinnati streetcar: Officials cite 'tremendous' urban development along streetcar route - Insider - Story

Is it true Cincinnati didn't conduct traffic studies and ensure the traffic signals coordinate with the streetcar prior to its opening? Is this the real reason the streetcar ridership, especially weekdays, has plummeted?

If true, who is the amateur that did this planning?

[unusualfire]

^Lots of things were cut to bring the price down. Blame the current Mayor.

[Wilson513]

"Daily ridership numbers show 49,920 people rode the streetcar in November"

November 2016 was the best weather in memory. OTR was flooded with tourists, visitors, street people. All very fun and a lot going on. A lot, that is, except for the streetcar ride.

This thing is DOA. A big gaping money sucking hole in the City budget. And, its promoters are on down the road never to pay the price for sticking the City with another white elephant.

Can't they just keep the streets clean, the thugs on the run and the garbage collected?

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

"Daily ridership numbers show 49,920 people rode the streetcar in November"

November 2016 was the best weather in memory. OTR was flooded with tourists, visitors, street people. All very fun and a lot going on. A lot, that is, except for the streetcar ride.

This thing is DOA. A big gaping money sucking hole in the City budget. And, its promoters are on down the road never to pay the price for sticking the City with another white elephant.

Can't they just keep the streets clean, the thugs on the run and the garbage collected?

To have dismal daily weekday ridership during the honeymoon phase is not a good sign. The novelty is gone in 2 months? Bad planning aside, as you state, what's the usefulness of the streetcar otherwise. Of course the initial opening and the few weekends thereafter saw large ridership; ridership numbers the streetcar couldn't handle.

Now the city has to dig into more $ for traffic studies and signal controls in attempt to ensure a smooth ride on a very limited rail loop.

Not sure how this small rail line is so messed up in its operation. Wait until the maintenance bills start mounting.

[WILWRadio]

Best to wait to see how the number look by next June. With a full year under its belt perhaps then we can gauge if it will have any chance of averaging the 3,000 riders it needs on a daily basis. One bad month is not necessarily an indicator that it is not going to reach the annual number of riders needed to come close to being on budget. I think that would mean around 900,000 to one million for the year.

While I was not in favor of this project and would have preferred to see a real light rail system developed, we'll just have to hold off on declaring this DOA until it has close to a year of daily operation to get a real idea of its potential success or failure.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

Best to wait to see how the number look by next June. With a full year under its belt perhaps then we can gauge if it will have any chance of averaging the 3,000 riders it needs on a daily basis. One bad month is not necessarily an indicator that it is not going to reach the annual number of riders needed to come close to being on budget. I think that would mean around 900,000 to one million for the year.

While I was not in favor of this project and would have preferred to see a real light rail system developed, we'll just have to hold off on declaring this DOA until it has close to a year of daily operation to get a real idea of its potential success or failure.

Agreed. Actually, you need to wait until next October, even into 2018 to get a real gauge. However, the fact that the novelty phase is resulting in dismal numbers already is not a good sign. Usually you see a large ridership initially, followed by a decline, if it's going to happen, over the course of years. The higher ridership numbers on weekends in Sept-Oct is an indication that the streetcar is a tourist novelty and not a transit commuter line. Not sure what the daily ridership of 3,000 was based on despite the residential growth in downtown CIN. Perhaps high ridership on summer weekends will pick up the slack and get the #s to average out to expected ridership figures.

The weekday ridership #s need to addressed immediately. The ridership should not be this low already.

[WILWRadio]

I'd also like to find out just how many property tax dollars have allegedly been generated by new development along the line, specifically from companies that said they bought properties or developed properties along the line simply because of its existence. Wondering if that increase in property tax revenue is enough to offset the potential lower ridership numbers?

[Wilson513]

Most all development is TIF. Not much tax benefit.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

Most all development is TIF. Not much tax benefit.

Then once again the taxpayers in Hamilton County appear to be getting the raw end of the deal again due to someone's or should I say several people's bad decision.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

I'd also like to find out just how many property tax dollars have allegedly been generated by new development along the line, specifically from companies that said they bought properties or developed properties along the line simply because of its existence. Wondering if that increase in property tax revenue is enough to offset the potential lower ridership numbers?

Sales gimmick to get higher sale prices, better lease terms etc. The development in downtown CIN would have happened with or without the streetcar. Somehow people believed that higher property values along the streetcar route would increase the tax base. Not sure when and if the county/city will see property tax $$ when the city has a tax abatement program for commercial and residential projects.

Wonder how many riders use the streetcar during the week at 11:00pm or weekends at 12:30am? Bet the hours get reduced until ridership picks up as does the cost of operating 17-18 hours a day.

I was attacked about mentioning that the streetcar wouldn't ''make money''; actually I meant it as ''earn revenue'' at the fare box. This streetcar is a $1.00 to ride and no one is using it. How are the businesses going to make $ from the streetcar? Oh, that's right, properties with abated tax bills are going to increase in value and the streetcar no one is currently using is supposed to shuttle 1,000s of customers from the Banks to ORT and points in between.

Bottom Line for CIN: it's built, the $ is spent, more $ is needed now to even get it to run properly, and lots more $ will be needed to maintain it, so the city has to make it work.

How are the streetcar expansion plans coming along? So far, the initial phase seems to have been planned and opened by amateurs.