Streetcar skeptic to believer (Cleveland, Cincinnati: live, cost of, floor)

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The Health Line only has 4 miles that are special, Euclid Ave. between downtown and University Circle. There are dedicated bus lanes along this stretch but nowhere else along the "line".

Again, this is ridiculous. The entire length of the Healthline has walk-on, walk-off platforms accommodating subway-style articulated buses. The length of the Healthline also is important as it creates its own networking impact. Finally the Healthline's functionality is improved by its integration into the Red Line rail rapid system and the free downtown bus trolley system.

Your denigration of the Healthline is ignorant, especially versus the Cincinnati streetcar.

Most Cincinnati residents familiar with both the Healthline and the Cincinnati streetcar would likely have preferred enhanced bus service, especially by walk-on, walk-off buses, that would have served both the university and the zoo for the same capital expenditure incurred by the much shorter streetcar line, if not less of a capital expenditure. Additionally, the streetcar line appears to require much larger per rider subsidies.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by WRnative

As for width of roads, walk-off, walk-on stations can be built adjacent to sidewalks, as was done on much of the Healthline route, where not all stations are in the median. If this wasn't possible, an enhanced traditional bus line, perhaps bus trolleys using unimproved sidewalk stops marked only by a sign post as are used in downtown Cleveland, would have offered a superior transit solution to the streetcar line at a fraction of the cost.

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Also, you failed to respond to comments regarding the geometry of Cleveland's streets versus ours -- we do not have any streets in Cincinnati that are wide enough to do what they did in Cleveland for four miles except for Spring Grove. So your insistence that the two modes serve the same mode is silly but you really strike out in your refusal to acknowledge that building an extensive BRT network in Cincinnati would require tearing down all the buildings on one side of Vine, Reading, Montgomery, Glenway, Hamilton, etc. Where is the cost of tearing down hundreds and thousands of buildings in your cost estimate?

Wrong again. See the last paragraph of my post 132, repeated above.

Was there a study that concluded that walk-on, walk-off platforms couldn't have been built from existing Cincinnati sidewalks, as such platforms are used extensively on the Healthline route? If not, then you're just creating a straw man argument, especially regarding the necessity of tearing down buildings. Even if some buildings (certainly not all) would have to have been removed to accommodate a walk-on, walk-off platform, the resulting development possibility might have been worthwhile.

If a walk-on, walk-off solution wasn't possible, nothing, as noted, would have prevented to development of an enhanced regular bus or bus trolley line, at a fraction of the cost of the streetcar line. Such a line could have been very cheaply extended to the Univ. of Cincinnati and the zoo.

You haven't addressed why a relatively cheap and longer route bus solution wouldn't have been preferable to the streetcar line.

Finally, how long does it take to travel one-way on the streetcar line? Strangely, and likely informatively, I can't find this key point of information mentioned anywhere. Perhaps you could provide a link to a schedule.

For the Healthline, it takes about 40 minutes during rush hour to travel the entire 9 miles from the East Cleveland Windermere/Stokes transit center to Public Square. The 5.5 miles to Severance Hall in University Circle takes about 30 minutes, according to Google Transit.

http://www.riderta.com/sites/default...HealthLine.pdf

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

As the crow flies, it is 1.5 miles from the streetcar's Banks station to the tracks on Henry St., its northernmost point. Because the route zags through the street grid, the route length is about 1.8 miles. 3.6 miles is the total length of revenue track. Luckily the position of the car barn at the corner of Henry and Race means there is virtually zero non-revenue track on the system.

The Health Line only has 4 miles that are special, Euclid Ave. between downtown and University Circle. There are dedicated bus lanes along this stretch but nowhere else along the "line". Also, the signal priority has been turned off since I rode it so no doubt the transit time is a bit slower.

Let's cut to the chase. The Streetcar line has 3.6 miles of track, but only serves destinations about 1.8 miles apart.

The Healthline services destinations that are 8 miles apart (with apparently a 9-mile route length), yet the Healthline itself incurred capital expenditures less than half that of the Cincinnati Connector. The Healthline serves about seven times as many riders.

Reportedly, the City of Cleveland refuses to turn on the Healthline signaling priority system because some auto commuters objected to being forced to wait for Healthline buses. This has been a source of complaint, as it apparently adds about 10 minutes to the travel time on the Healthline.

The Healthline, as you noted, does have dedicated lanes along about half of its route, but this is not the only distinguishing characteristic of the Healthline system.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Let's cut to the chase. The Streetcar line has 3.6 miles of track, but only serves destinations about 1.8 miles apart.

The Healthline services destinations that are 8 miles apart (with apparently a 9-mile route length), yet the Healthline itself incurred capital expenditures less than half that of the Cincinnati Connector. The Healthline serves about seven times as many riders.

Reportedly, the City of Cleveland refuses to turn on the Healthline signaling priority system because some auto commuters objected to being forced to wait for Healthline buses. This has been a source of complaint, as it apparently adds about 10 minutes to the travel time on the Healthline.

The Healthline, as you noted, does have dedicated lanes along about half of its route, but this is not the only distinguishing characteristic of the Healthline system.

I think you both miss the point. The Connector is not a transportation system. No one needs to travel this route on a streetcar, bus, or helicopter. You can walk it in 10 minutes. The whole route. Most of the passengers are only on it for 6-8 blocks.

The Connector is a ride. Entertainment. Like the horse drawn carriages. The pedal trolley. The most useful thing it does is to allow some Findlay Market shoppers who also happen to live downtown a cool trip for organic greens on Saturday morning.

So stop arguing about it. We get it. The Cleveland thing moves people from one place to another. And, it too would be better off as a rubber tire articulated bus.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

I think you both miss the point. The Connector is not a transportation system. No one needs to travel this route on a streetcar, bus, or helicopter. You can walk it in 10 minutes. The whole route. Most of the passengers are only on it for 6-8 blocks.

The Connector is a ride. Entertainment. Like the horse drawn carriages. The pedal trolley. The most useful thing it does is to allow some Findlay Market shoppers who also happen to live downtown a cool trip for organic greens on Saturday morning.

So stop arguing about it. We get it. The Cleveland thing moves people from one place to another. And, it too would be better off as a rubber tire articulated bus.

If the streetcar is a $100 million entertainment ride, as you claim, requiring heavy subsidies, are you seriously arguing that this is an acceptable use of scarce mass transit dollars?

Cincinnati wouldn't have been better off with a cheaper solution that would have connected downtown with the University of Cincinnati and the zoo and offering more robust, speedier service?

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by WRnative

If the streetcar is a $100 million entertainment ride, as you claim, requiring heavy subsidies, are you seriously arguing that this is an acceptable use of scarce mass transit dollars?

Cincinnati wouldn't have been better off with a cheaper solution that would have connected downtown with the University of Cincinnati and the zoo and offering more robust, speedier service?

No,

and yes.

An articulated rubber tire shuttle with 10 stops and fully subsidized (no fare) would have cost a fraction of the Connector subsidy and moved people up to UC which is the only useful thing needed. The zoo is not important. Zoo visitors do not come from downtown.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Wilson513

The zoo is not important. Zoo visitors do not come from downtown.

Actually, I could see downtown visitors (e.g., conventions) wanting easy access to the zoo, as it's one of the more renown zoos in the U.S.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Actually, I could see downtown visitors (e.g., conventions) wanting easy access to the zoo, as it's one of the more renown zoos in the U.S.

Mmmmm, maybe.

I'm a member. I've looked at plates and most are Ind and Ky which are both on our border. But, there is increased hotel occupancy downtown, so maybe it would happen.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by cincydave8

You won't find anywhere on the enquirers website but for the 2nd time this month they had to add a 4th streetcar to meet demand.

https://twitter.com/CincyStreetcar/s...98407625129985

Yeah I was downtown on Friday Dec 23rd and Monday the 26th. Downtown was very busy those days. Saw Smale park filled with families enjoying the warm weather on Monday and lots of people on the streetcar as part of an outing with out-of-town visitors.


I took this video on Friday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic685cxYWlU




Remember the Holly Jolly Trolley? It was a service DCI funded for several years. It was basically one of those Southbank Shuttle buses looping around downtown with a wreath on the front. I never saw anyone on it. It was cancelled this year now that the streetcar is here. Would love to see the local media compare Holly Jolly Trolley ridership to what we have now.


Thinking back to November, I remember how dead downtown was the weekend after the election and how the Ray Tensing verdict kept people away for another week. CPS sent kids home early and I had an official email at work telling us that we should stay out of downtown and that we might close if things got out-of-hand. I'm sure many others received similar warnings from their workplace along with the local media going a bit crazy with it all. All of the streetcar haters chose to ignore all that in their anti-streetcar victory lap.

[Wilson513]

I like the streetcar. Fun ride. Money is already gone and it would have been squandered on some other favorite toy of City Council anyway.

One of my wife's friends said that she always like to spend a little more than her husband earned - kept him motivated. Council will have to find the money for this money pit every year. Like the County does for the Brown Stain stadium.