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[quote=WyoNewk;7368946]Sounds over the top to me, Sunsprit, but I'm naturally a bit of a skeptic.
Do I understand you correctly, that they're making it this size for a population in the year 2059? If so, that makes little sense. Most public buildings built today won't be around in 50 years, or if they are they'll have had remodeling done that cost almost as much as replacement. [quote]
[color="Blue"]I visited with the county planner about the population basis. He said they'd drawn a "50-mile radius" circle around Cheyenne to determine the area the facility would serve, and came up with the 300,000+ population number.
I think they're full of themselves over this. They're counting on bringing in shooters from Ft Collins and Greeley, CO., as well as rural shooters from Pine Bluffs and Chugwater, WY.
I don't believe that Ft Collins shooters, who are currently well served by several shooting clubs as well as indoor ranges at local gun shops are going to drive 100+ miles to spend as much money to shoot indoors as they can do now at home.
Nor do I see the booming populations of Chugwater WY, or Hereford or Grover CO supplying more than a handful of paying customers. Most of these folks can shoot at home for sighting in their big bore hunting rifles and ... in my experience ... aren't indoor target shooters, especially not pistol target shooters. They're "plinkers", utility shooters (small varmints around the ranch), or CASS shooters, which is an outdoor seasonal sport.
I'm astounded that they've planned well over 30 long range hi-power rifle range spots. I don't see a demand for that many hunters sighting in each year, and I don't see a demand for competitive long distance shooters around here, either. Unless they can create a market demand for another major venue of competitive shooting such as Camp Perry matches, and have frequent competitive events to keep the place busy, they won't be able to afford to operate the place.
For example, they've planned 5 offices for the various shooting disciplines. Who needs full time office space for their shooting group? are there employees of each group that will be there full time?
They've included a shooter supplies/accessories shop. Who is going to run that and staff that full time? On a 7 day week operation, there's going to be a lot of slack time. My concern is that they're competing with the retailers on an unfair basis when it comes to overhead and space costs. I don't want a county facility putting retailers out of business.
They've included a commercial kitchen facility adjacent to the large meeting area. That's a nice convenience for a meeting, but a duplication of the other facilities of the complex, which include the county fair buildings and meeting halls. We're talking about "right across the parking lot in the complex" distance away for comparable facilities that would be available for most of the year for monthly meetings, social get togethers, etc.
When I compare the population basis that's actually here, and the relative size of a major shooting sports facility in Salt Lake City ... this simply doesn't make sense. The amount of paid staffers that would be needed to supervise operations ... range safety management alone would need several full time staffers, a staggering operating budget item when they've divided up the indoor ranges into three distinctly different areas in two buildings.
I think they've got to put this in the perspective that out of the entire shooting sports people in the region, they were able to get only 301 paid charter memberships. Even if that was only 1/10th of the interest in the area, that's only 3,000 shooters that would be supporting the place. Much of the facility is seasonal use only ... shotgunning, maybe sporting clays, long range rifle ranges, and outdoor pistol ranges. The indoor ranges will bring in pistol shooters ... but how many per day? I don't see a lot of demand for small bore rifle competitive shooters in the area ... you simply don't see too many folks around here who shoot competition small-bore rifles/pistols. The gun racks with the Anschutz and BSA Martini's and Winchester 52's and Remington 40X's sit with the rifles unused, and competition pistols don't appear around here very often.
The proof to me is to go to the current indoor target ranges, where most shooters are using higher power pistols ... I stand out like a sore thumb when I bring out a Hi-Std or other match pistol. If you look at the targets that are being shot, they're not shooting at 50' match type little circles, but other stuff.
While the indoor air rifle/pistol range is not very expensive to build, it's utilization would be ... IMO ... very low. The advocates for this claim a local interest in youth shooting, but their activity level has been a total of 14 competitive shooters over the last few years. To their credit, they produced a few national level shooters ... but I don't see an overwhelming demand for such a facility here in Cheyenne. Not unless they can drum up a lot of interest in youth or competitive air rifle competition which hasn't been here up till now. Especially when a 30' range can be built in a basement or shop area for occasional use by a shooter; I've got a neighbor who uses the hallway of his basement as his air rifle range and practices for his trips out of the area to matches twice a year. He buys all of three tins of pellets a year.
I have to agree. It wasn't until Vegas grew to the size it is now that the pressure was there to build a big-league shooting range with 1000 yard ranges, etc. We're talking 1.6 million people, plus lots of tourists and big-league competitions coming in from out of town.
There's a great facility in Washoe County, NV (north of Reno) and it is well used year 'round, but one of the reasons it has this level of use is that they were one of the first 1000 yard ranges "done right" where you could be a) near a good airport, b) just off an interstate, c) with enough hotel rooms nearby to hold major matches at a national or regional level. It wasn't built up until Reno/Sparks reached about 150K in population.
When you look out in the rural areas of Nevada (where I would estimate that there are more hard-core shooting enthusiasts per capita than in rural Wyoming), you see very makeshift ranges built up. There are some very well done aspects of these ranges (eg, sporting clays, skeet or trap - pick any two, but not all three), but not a big, integrated facility with indoor ranges or ranges for all specific disciplines as DCM, Leg, Highpower, smallbore rifle or pistol, IPSC, etc.
Even the Washoe Co. range has no indoor facility. It has a county employee staff for range control, but it has no indoor facilities. Once you get into indoor facilities, the cost of construction and operation goes skyward like a homesick angel.
This Cheyenne facility sounds quite interesting to me, but quite ambitious. Having lived most of my life within 100 miles of Los Angeles, I could see a need for this type of facility in the area around L.A., but Cheyenne? I don't see the need. Unfortunately, in California, anything having to do with guns and "public funding" is seen as taboo, so it will likely never happen.
In Cheyenne, I see a much more favorable (political) climate for such a facility, but far less need, due to the vast amounts of accessible open space nearby. I think the idea of drawing from a 50 mile radius is realistic in California, but not in Wyoming. I would like to have a facility of this sort nearby, but only if the expenses were minimal, allowing a full day of shooting for a minimal cost. In this case, it sounds as though the users of the facility will be paying for a moderate sized staff and somewhat high maintenance expenses, so it probably would push the envelope for affordability, negatively impacting its use. Perhaps what they should be doing at this time is building the indoor rifle/pistol range in addition to an outdoor range (or two), and add the other facilities as income permits and use demands. The indoor range could be scaled down for pistol or airgun use, by shortening the shooting lanes, and scaled up for rifle use by lengthening the lanes. The outdoor range could be set up for long range use, and could be shortened for shorter ranges as needed. As usage increased, the other facilities could be added according to need. As for the kitchen and offices, if they were shared with those used by the Fairgrounds, that would make the most sense to me. Again, they could be added or expanded as needed, when usage increases.
The AFB has a gun club? if so what is it called. Most installations do have one, the only thing I have seen on the installation is a archery range. there is a skeet club next to the base, cheyenne GC and DOT. If you have information on the AFB club let me know..
I completely forgot to mention .... but got reminded as I drove past a "state school section" today, and saw a few shooters having set themselves up with a shooting bench, targets, and chairs just off a county road ...
It is perfectly legal and acceptable to shoot on "public lands" in the area. As long as you set up your targets with a properly chosen backstop area and are not by a house or livestock, it's OK. I was surprised because the fellows I saw were sighting in a few rifles at about 100 yards.
The section they were on is leased out for livestock, and there's about 70 head of horses overwintering on the place. But they were far away from the shooters, and no hazard.
So, that's another option for your casual shooting sport.
Just back from the Cheyenne Shooting Park meeting, where the proposed facilites at the new County "Archer" Complex were presented, along with the bugets/funding now in place.
The proposed facilities include outdoor 600, 300, 200, and 100 yard long ranges, with shorter outdoor smallbore rifle ranges, and outdoor pistol ranges. They will build a shotgun park area with 12 stations, and an archery range. Also, a pond area for dog training. Indoors will be meeting rooms, offices, bathrooms, an airgun range, and two indoor ranges ... one for smallbore/shorter range pistol use, and a longer one for higher power firearms. Also, shops, conference faciities, a kitchen/catering area, and other related rooms. To give you an idea of how many shooting stations there are, the outdoor long distance ranges have over 36 stations.
The key to this is the change over from a private corporation to a publicly funded facility, which means that the "charter memberships" will no longer be valid. All users will have equal treatment for day use or annual fees.
The 6th penny sales tax revenue stream has assigned almost $3mil to this facility, and anticipates at the current rate of collection a 3 year time frame before facilities will break ground. At this time, they're seeking input as to how to prioritize the buildings/structures. The NRA has donated $29,000 for berms for the outdoor ranges, and there's been additional monies from public sources and donations given to the group. The group is reorganizing as a "laramie county shooting educational facility" to manage the proposed development and operations.
I understand that the public funds used for building the place will not have to be repaid, but the operating budget will have to come out of the user fees. At this point, the planners have designed a facility which they think will have to meet the shooting sports needs of an area population of 300,000+ people over the next 50 years.
Personally, I think they've greatly overestimated the population base and the users, given that there's a lot of places to shoot now which serve the community, including the Cheyenne Gun Club, the Regulators, an AFB gun club, and Pine Bluffs Gun Club, among others. I put this in the perspective that we charter members totaled only 301 paying memberships out of the area population. I think the facilities are great, but way too much facility for the area and demand ... if required to be operating "in the black", the fees will have to be split among too small a group to make it justifiable. For example, the indoor gun ranges require two hermetically sealed ranges operating HVAC units to keep them at a negative pressure so they can capture the lead fumes into air filtration units. Yes, that's TWO sizable units to keep maintained and powered up. Just keeping the lights on for the common spaces and bathrooms will be a sizable monthly bill.
So, on the one hand, I think it's all a grand plan and a spectacular facility. On the other hand, I think it's set up to fail by folks with incredibly optomistic schemes at the public trough. We'll see.
THEY WERE FROM OUR EARTH-OR WERE THEY GOV. PEOPLE?
THEY WERE FROM OUR EARTH-OR WERE THEY GOV. PEOPLE?
The organizers of the Cheyenne Shooting Park are local shooting sports enthusiasts. Their dream of this type of facility has been kicking around for over 10 years, and it was two years ago that they incorporated the business concept. That was when they realized how to go about raising public money was best accomplished by approaching the whole deal as a business instead of a "private club", and could get grant monies and funding from others, such as the NRA ... which they have done.
The whole concept ballooned on them when the Archer Complex for Laramie County ... with "6th penny sales tax" funding and other grants became available for public vote. So the core group of about 15 founders applied for the maximum wish list they could possibly think of, with the hopes that some money and a facility plan would result that would be acceptable.
I think they're in over their heads now, with the local gov't response accepting everything they had on their wish list. It's one thing to get the funding to build the place, but it's quite another to be able to afford to operate it after that. They're in for a very rude awakening if this massive complex ever gets built. I don't believe you could operate something on this scale with a local population base as large as SLC's ... and the population base assumption they have is way over what we have.
Cheyenne doesn't have the transportation or hospitality infrastructure to support the frequent influx of out-of-the area shooters that would be needed to generate the revenues, nor the volunteer network of enthusiasts that would be required to manage, support, and supervise large events. We don't have scheduled air travel up to the level required. Despite the perception of the massive influx of folks for Frontier Days, that's a whole different crowd of folks who travel for the rodeo and entertainment circuit by private vehicles, and many "camp out" in trailers which also haul their livestock ... a whole different paradigm than shooters traveling in for a couple days of events. Cheyenne may be well served by the crossroads of I-80 and I-25, but it's still a long way away from major population centers of the USA to travel.
You can put this grandiose scheme in the perspective of the local gov't folks ... especially the Cheyenne City council. They've recently tried to foist a huge recreation complex upon the local economy ... in competition with the private groups (YMCA, for-profit gyms, etc) ... that was scaled for a city about 15-20 times larger than Cheyenne. Fortunately, the voters rejected the bond in the last election. But the boosters for this will be back ... on the premise that Cheyenne "ain't sh*t" without a big magnificent palace for the folk who would want to have an olympic sized pools complex, and indoor tracks, and indoor ball courts, gymnasiums, etc. The boosters are thinking that the rest of us who turned it down are "small thinkers" and Cheyenne will be a world class community with this simple addition ... which we can't afford to build, let alone operate without substantial tax revenue once in operation. I am reminded of the sports boosters who can't possibly live in a town without major league ball clubs ... all in publicly funded stadiums (like Denver, or San Diego, or ... well, pick your fav) which require millions of public dollars every year to operate for the direct benefit of the ball club teams and their owners. Of course, their perspective is that (city) "ain't sh*t" without a winning major league team. There are, of course, those of us who couldn't care less about it ... but we still get to pay for it. GO Team ... rah rah rah rah, etc.
Similarly, the esteemed Cheyenne City council managed to side step public input (and funding) on another facility, the Taco John's events center. Built as a private, for-profit ice skating rink and entertainment complex by a group of (well-heeled) private locals, it lost giant amounts of money since the day it was built. The investor group conned the City Council into what a great asset it was, and the Council approved a "land swap" of city owned land parcels deemed to be of equal value for the complex. They figured that Cheyenne was essentially getting the complex for "Free", and that operating revenue would be met by local fee use. Somehow, after they bought the place, it turned out that the refrigeration equipment was worn out or had much deferred maintenance, and the physical plant needed substantial repairs, or a fed mandated upgrade to comply with ADA requirements ... all to the tune of millions of dollars from the City coffers. Once that work was completed, and they've operated the place for a year ... it now turns out that there's a substantial annual shortfall in the cash flow with all the city employees needed to run the place, as well as the cost of utilities and other operating expenses. Surprise! the sellers lied to the city about the value and condition of the facility ... all of which could have been determined by the city in advance if they'd done normal pre-buy due diligence and inspections. But the twisted web of the city council boosters and the investor pool are essentially one and the same group of people ....
And so it goes ... Cheyenne built a new municipal downtown parking garage with glowing forecasts of how much operating revenue it would bring in. Well, now that it's been built, it's running about 15% occupancy ... at a substantial loss for the revenue needed to pay for the bonds. We naysayers were shut out by the boosters ... but it was obvious before the concept dried on the paper that it wouldn't work. Why not? There simply isn't the traffic and need for that much parking in the area. But it's a pretty monument to the Cheyenne City Council and their boosterism of Cheyenne. FWIW, Cheyenne's downtown street parking is pretty much available, and one doesn't have to walk but a block or so at the most during business hours ... for free downtown parking on the streets.
i got deep respect in wy people i want to know some areas in wy a person can go in the wilderness on a nice day to go plinking shooting with their rifle/guns. im from ind & i remember when i was a kid [i was born48] my dad took me to ind dune state pk all day shooting boy do i miss those days!i know lot of people in southern st., walk down the gravel rd with their rifle & guns to go into the woods to target shoot with no problem. so again what areas in wy a person can target shoot my email is pauldudak@frontier.com i like to know the name of areas thanks
1 i know lot of southern states people walk down gravel rd with their rifles & guns to go into the woods to target shoot with no problem
As long as you are shooting safely, you can (with very few exceptions) shoot freely on any state or other public land, as well as any private land that you have permission to be on.
It is exceedingly easy to go shooting in almost any part of Wyoming. To name any area would be nearly impossible. It would be easier to list areas you CAN'T shoot.
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