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I was asked by a friend of a friend if I would go through his fiction ms and edit as I saw fit. I am NOT a professional editor, but I have published hundreds of non-fiction articles, some short stories/flash fiction, and three very successful non-fiction books with major publishing houses. I am an avid fiction reader, though. He knows this...we left the issue of pay open. I told him that I'd do my best and we could discuss compensation later.
The problem is, the ms is a mess. Very disorganized and choppy. He's "emotionally" close to it and has written the main character as whatever the male equivalent of a Mary Sue is. I've read most of it in hard copy but every page of my online copy is a solid mass of highlighting, comments and suggestions and grayed-out passages that I think are completely redundant. And I've only gone through eight pages. At this rate it will take me a month or more to go through the whole thing!
I'm trying hard not to interfere with his style and what he is trying to convey (he does have talent; the book is not unrelentingly bad) and I'm actually enjoying the process. So far he's only had friends and family read it so of course his feedback has been all positive, so far. It is a story of redemption and self-discovery, with a fair amount of explicit sex thrown in.
I'm not really that concerned about messing with his "baby" (I know that my own books changed completely after several rounds of editing) but I do worry that I might be overstepping bounds by suggesting a: lots of little nit-picky changes and b: some fairly major structural changes. I do think this could be a marketable ms but it needs a ton of work. He's at 89,000 words, give or take. As an additional data point, he has had several short stories published in online literary mags.
Well, shoot, now that I've written this out I am not sure what my questions are. Heh.
I suppose: How much editing is too much? How to bolster a writer's self esteem and process while ripping an ms to shreds? And feel free to comment on why I shouldn't even undertake this process since I'm not a professional editor. I can take it.
I would show him what you have and explain that he has not even reached the "final draft" point of the manuscript yet. He should look at your comments for the part you have edited, revise the whole thing, then get back to you.
I would show him what you have and explain that he has not even reached the "final draft" point of the manuscript yet. He should look at your comments for the part you have edited, revise the whole thing, then get back to you.
Thanks!
I actually thought of doing this. I think it's a good idea.
Does he really want editing, or just feedback? It sounds to me like the manuscript is not ready for an editor.
Send it back and tell him to put it back onto the printer and get you a copy that is triple spaced so that you have room for comments and corrections.
I always felt that my job as an editor was to challenge the writer to be even better. Never ever give your own ides on how the story should go. Comments should be "why did he do this? What was his motivation?" Not "I think it would be better if he......". Or "you let him off too easy. Don't be afraid to put him in to real danger and then get him out", instead of "how about putting a bomb in the car?"
There are 2 kinds of editors, by the way. The editor's real job is to challenge the story line. There are lower paid proof readers for things like punctuation and spelling.
Way back in high school, the best teacher I ever had graded our English essays and criticisms on content and style, then average the two grades for the final grade. It sounds to me as if your friend would be open to stylistic criticism, which would include simple stuff like grammatical errors, tense switches, run-on sentences, cliches, etc., rather than on criticism of content, which would include plot, characterization, narrative, and so on. Description and vocabulary fall half-way in between, as they contain elements of both content and style.
I agree that asking your friend to do more rewriting and polishing would be a very good idea, as his manuscript sounds very rough at this stage.
I've since educated myself of the difference between a manuscript critique and a line edit. oregonwoodsmoke, thank you.
He is nowhere near ready for a line edit. I've read 3/4 of the ms so far and it's a hot mess. I know where he is trying to go with it, I think, but it is so disorganized and with so many inconsistencies that he really needs to rearrange and clarify his story before doing a line edit (proofreading) even makes sense.
I sent him an email today saying that I'd give him my initial feedback by the end of the week and I will not charge him for that. I think I'm going to ignore the typos and clunky phrasing and wall-of-text paragraphs for now, since there's so much that needs to be fixed before he gets to that point. CraigCreek, I hear you, but I don't think it makes sense to get nitpicky with something that will be completely rewritten (if he wants any chance of an agent looking at this.) It is not a bad story at all and he has some interesting characters, but it needs to be completely reorganized.
The other issue I'm trying to figure out is what's his audience. Because he has many pages dedicated to fairly explicit and detailed sex scenes. I'm thinking of suggesting he tone those WAY down for the ms and submit them separately to Penthouse or someplace that accepts pornography. He's not bad at writing porn.
Without ever seeing the manuscript, I suggest that you tell him that he needs to consider breaking up the huge paragraphs into smaller paragraphs and smooth out the rough phrasing and watch his typos.
I would not suggest that he take out the sex, for this reson: if he gets a publisher, the publisher will decide if the sex should be less explicit. Different publishing houses want different things and if they don't want it, they will tell him to take it out. It's an easy cut.
A couple of very big sellers recently have had way too much violent sex in them. I don't particularly think it says anything wonderful about our society, but that is not the issue here.
It sounds to me like you have been handed a rough draft, so there is no reason to correct spelling and grammar, since the manuscript will be re-written a few dozen times. You have to explain to your friend that it is not the editor's job to turn a rough draft into a finished book. He has to do the work himself, and then the editor polishes. (at which point, he will do a couple more rewrites.)
I would show him what you have and explain that he has not even reached the "final draft" point of the manuscript yet. He should look at your comments for the part you have edited, revise the whole thing, then get back to you.
Excellent advise. I started a story over a decade ago, and sent the first chapter to a friend. She was not a professional author, but certainly could edit. I read over her stories as well.
I get this email which is huge... and then one which says don't read that one, sorry sorry didn't mean to hurt you. Then one which said sorry but its not personal.
So I was intreged. She read the first part. She didn't so much dislike the writing but, well, who are these people? Why should I care about them? Where did they come from? She didn't get much past that and thought she'd hurt my feelings.
I was sort of upset, but then thought... she's right. Where did they come from. I know. She doesn't. I ended up putting it away for a while since it was too much for me then. But went back a few years later after another friend who isn't worried about saying it just doesn't work edited another story.
You are not doing them a favor by feeling guilty. Remember that if you don't know what they meant and it makes no sense, they need to know this. This is why the reader should NOT be privy to the plans for the future story or discuss the characters. You have to take from the writing, not from what you've been told.
My friend did me a really good favor and has helped me considerably since just in showing that the story and the author are seperate and if someone else does not see what you mean them to you need to work on it.
Also, its better if you can do a first draft, straight through, since the ideas develope there. That is one kind of task. The perfecting of the writing is an entirely different task which works best if you concentrate on it.
Without ever seeing the manuscript, I suggest that you tell him that he needs to consider breaking up the huge paragraphs into smaller paragraphs and smooth out the rough phrasing and watch his typos.
Most definitely he must get rid of the walls of text. Also, now that I've finished it, I realise it completely lacks any sort of story arc or plot and the ending is just a flat thunk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
I would not suggest that he take out the sex, for this reson: if he gets a publisher, the publisher will decide if the sex should be less explicit. Different publishing houses want different things and if they don't want it, they will tell him to take it out. It's an easy cut.
A couple of very big sellers recently have had way too much violent sex in them. I don't particularly think it says anything wonderful about our society, but that is not the issue here.
I'm one of three women over 30 in this country who hasn't read Shades of Gray but I'm not talking about taking out the sex, just reducing the numerous sex scenes from 3-5 pages each, to, say, one page. Every time the protagonist meets an attractive women, you just know there's going to be a lengthy sex scene within two pages, where the character once again reveals himself to be an irresistable, skilled, considerate, tireless lover about to give the woman more orgasms than she's ever experienced with any man before in her life. (We know this because each one says so, breathlessly.)
That's another problem, the main character is such a one-dimensional Marty Stu it's quite funny. The author has so clearly modeled this character on a bigger, badder and perfectly, perfecto, McPerfect perfect version of himself that it's hard to take seriously. Although he means it very seriously.
To reiterate, the author is but a distant acquaintance of a friend. I've only met him once, when he gave me the hard copy of the ms (I also have a digital copy, of course.) But even if I knew nothing about him at all, the Marty Stu-ness of the character is so, so obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
It sounds to me like you have been handed a rough draft, so there is no reason to correct spelling and grammar, since the manuscript will be re-written a few dozen times. You have to explain to your friend that it is not the editor's job to turn a rough draft into a finished book. He has to do the work himself, and then the editor polishes. (at which point, he will do a couple more rewrites.)
Indeed. What I'm working on is the big picture - suggesting ways to reshape his story, reshape his characters...well it's a long list! I'm rather enjoying this, really. I wish it was better because honestly I'm not sure he's capable of turning this into anything remotely marketable. But I have impressed on him that I'm not a professional editor, and that what he gets from me will be my opinion only. And that if he can whip it into shape somehow, he should at least have one impartial, professional editor look at it.
Excellent advise. I started a story over a decade ago, and sent the first chapter to a friend. She was not a professional author, but certainly could edit. I read over her stories as well.
I get this email which is huge... and then one which says don't read that one, sorry sorry didn't mean to hurt you. Then one which said sorry but its not personal.
So I was intreged. She read the first part. She didn't so much dislike the writing but, well, who are these people? Why should I care about them? Where did they come from? She didn't get much past that and thought she'd hurt my feelings.
I was sort of upset, but then thought... she's right. Where did they come from. I know. She doesn't. I ended up putting it away for a while since it was too much for me then. But went back a few years later after another friend who isn't worried about saying it just doesn't work edited another story.
You are not doing them a favor by feeling guilty. Remember that if you don't know what they meant and it makes no sense, they need to know this. This is why the reader should NOT be privy to the plans for the future story or discuss the characters. You have to take from the writing, not from what you've been told.
My friend did me a really good favor and has helped me considerably since just in showing that the story and the author are seperate and if someone else does not see what you mean them to you need to work on it.
Also, its better if you can do a first draft, straight through, since the ideas develope there. That is one kind of task. The perfecting of the writing is an entirely different task which works best if you concentrate on it.
Yep. He told me he wrote the whole thing (just shy of 90,000 words) in less than a month. He acknowledges it's a first draft and he knows how much work is still ahead of him...I just don't think he realises how much. As you say, some distance and time might help him get some perspective. I'm sure he's way too involved with it after writing at that pace. I did nanowrimo one year and "won" but I tell you, 50,000 words in 30 days (on top of working full time) was pretty exhausting! And what I wrote was chaotic and all over the place.
I'll be sending him my thoughts and suggestions first thing in the morning and will update with his reaction.
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He acknowledges it's a first draft and he knows how much work is still ahead of him...I just don't think he realises how much. As you say, some distance and time might help him get some perspective. I'm sure he's way too involved with it after writing at that pace. I did nanowrimo one year and "won" but I tell you, 50,000 words in 30 days (on top of working full time) was pretty exhausting! And what I wrote was chaotic and all over the place.
