News, Starbucks CEO: $15 min. wage may kill jobs (credit card, debt, average)
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What are widely considered "producers" of our country are not having children until either way later in life or at all. The population is increasing from as you say, immigrants- and my addition, not exactly the brightest.
We can live with pie in the sky dreams here and act like everyone has a fair chance and in America, kids have the freedom to be whatever they want. The reality is, the future for these new kids are auto mechanics (on the high level) and unemployable mouth breathers (on the low end).
Unfortunately, these jobs are not going to be there. Lest us also remember that robots weren't just implemented to save money, but also to provide reliable work. Work that doesn't show up late, drunk or high. Robots are dependable. The people whose job they replaced are usually not. And no, no one will pay them more. We need to get over that. Forklift drivers are lucky to have a job. In 10 years, they won't. Kick, scream, whatever- these jobs are leaving.
In 10 years, America will be a wasteland of derelicts and mega rich. It will be Europe. UE in the 50%'s. Bums and drovers lining every inch of public real estate.
And let's get serious, us, as consumers, are just as much to blame. We keep buying this garbage and helping in this country's race to the bottom.
United States is still a very rich country. It has a GDP (PPP) and GDP (Nominal) per capita which according to IMF is top-ten in the world in 2013. Still, you have a high unemployment and under-underemployment in United States and the rest of the west. It is mostly centered to people born in the 80s and 90s. I find the last thing quite interesting, because most people would actually say it is a waste of resources has people with college degrees work part time in retail making a minimum-salary or having skilled blue-color workers like construction-workers, with all kinds of certificates see their salary drops because corporations hire firms that use foreign labor.
When it comes to robots they make work more efficient, less costly (just high investment-costs) and dependable. The most common robot is the personal computer. Once upon a time you needed (mostly women) who could type on a typewriter, which means very good spelling. Today, you have software (Word) that makes anyone to a proficient writer – when it comes to spelling and grammar. You don’t need translator in the same extent anymore because you can translate texts with computer-programs.
I read German newspapers sometimes. My German is rather basic but with the help of translation program I can fast translates those words or parts I don’t understand. Technology is a good thing – but technology also make out societies less labor-intensive and so a small population is needed. In the beginning of the industrial-age (1770-1820) a movement named Luddite movement was developed, which purpose were to fight economical and technological progress. It was dead by 1820 it was dead. Starting in 1830, millions of people left Europe for The Americas and it continued until 1920. United States, Canada and countries in Latin-America needed labor, farmers and colonialists. Also, a great number of people moved to New Zeeland, Australia, South Africa and other former colonies that were in need of people to out-compete the indigenous population and to work the land. Because of this migration to colonies and former colonies the labor market were balanced in Europe.
In turn United States labor market was balanced around 1900 and so the unemployment grew. In 1924 “The Hill” introduced restriction on immigration and so immigration-numbers dropped significantly from 5.2 percent in 1924 to 4.2 percent in 1928 – partly because of reduced immigration and partly because of speculation (bubble-blowing or Bull-Market) on the financial-markets which lead to the stock-crash in 1929. Immigration can be good (creates a larger internal market, investments and innovation) – but only if the immigration hold a certain quality. The western world has primarily non-skilled immigration from the third world. There are two effects.
In Europe, which have a high threshold (and high salaries even for non-skilled jobs because of unionization and laws) it leads to massive unemployment among non-skilled immigrants. About 1/3 of the unemployment and under-unemployment is correlated to third world immigration. In United States non-skilled immigrants can find jobs but it leads to a significant drop in salaries, in particular among the black and white working poor. We have of course the lost generation of people born in the 80s, 90s and likely also 2000s. They will see great difficulty on the labor-market because of advancement in technology, immigration, outsourcing of jobs to the Asia and development in organization management. People are simply not needed anymore as workers, only as consumers.
But what happens when you have people who are unemployed and cannot consume? Well, they do create job-opportunities for those who pay-out their welfare checks but they are few in numbers but aside from that? It is pretty simple. Let’s say you live in a Lancaster County outside Pittsburgh. Wal-Mart decides to outsource their factory in Lancaster to the slums of east Beijing. It is not only a few hundred workers at that factory that lose their jobs but all the business that has built around the factory including plenty of white-color jobs disappears. That is called scatter-effects. The local Wal-Mart sells a little less but to a higher margin. People continue to consume for a few years through loans, incomes from temporary jobs and savings. The local Wal-Mart now loses money because people cannot afford buying their products and people start to leave Lancaster County. Wal-Mart makes their store more efficient by having people check in their own merchandise and cut staff. In the end Wal-Mart close their doors in Lancaster County because their customers in either on welfare , have bad paid jobs or have left Lancaster.
My friends in finance have a love for political economist Frédéric Bastiat but for all the wrong reasons. Bastiat tells us that if people leave the saturated market there will be no new jobs but less people to compete for those jobs that are around. So – less immigration means lesser people who compete for the jobs that are around and so more people would be able to find employment within the country. Those who argue for free immigration would say that immigrants would create a larger market (which is true) but the ratio of unemployment would be the same and looking at the cost for the society – the current type of immigration is costly – either they are on welfare like in Europe or work low-paid jobs like in United States. We do not have an immigration striving for quality rather it is about quantity and they are welcome regardless of their costs to the society because a bunch of political reasons.
My libertarian friends just tells me that if we just abolish the welfare-state it would all work fine but in the real world (if we does not abolish democracy) immigrants would vote to keep the welfare state. Minorities are very seldom libertarians. In fact – most people are not. If we would abolish the welfare state people would end up starving to death just as in the old days. Only the wealthy would survive. This is a libertarian Darwinian world-view – which is just insanity because it leads to social unrest in a modern society. That is why more responsible libertarians like Robert Nozick just like liberals like John Rawls tried to explain that for a libertarian society to work you need some kind of moral and social community. Capitalism is good but you have to use it in a responsible way.
Some immigration is always needed like when you want an Indian specialist doctor with an expertise in Cancer-research. Some immigration cannot be stopped for moral reasons like taking in refugees (could be argued that we should help people in the neighboring countries instead – which is clearly more cost-effective) and to allow people from different countries fall in love and live in our country.
The idea is that a country is like a family – there more money you bring in (through external trade) the more can be invested in creating jobs. For example - most European cities has Opera-houses but few goes to them other than tourist, old people and cultural-buffs. An Opera house would never survive on a free market but having it creates employment for a few hundred people even though it would be costly for the society.
The alternative would be unemployment for these people and so they would benefit nothing with their labor – still even if it would be cheaper just to give them hand-outs, people need a meaningful life and hiring them at the Opera-house would give them the tools to find another job because of the gained experience.
There is a myth that all people can become wealthy. Most people cannot and are depended on those people who can create wealth. You hear all the time that you should establish your own business but without capital you cannot establish anything. I cannot start up a consulting-firm without some experience but let’s say I worked at this Opera-house and gained some experience than I would be able to save money and gain the experience to maybe start up my own dancing business – selling dance-classes to people. Most of the very wealthy (statistically) was wealthy from the beginning – there are just a few people who started from nothing and became rich. Social-class is rather constant. The smartest people in our society don’t become medical doctors, good teachers, built an industry or something like that. They go to Wall-Street and make quick bucks as salesmen selling junk-bonds and while working there they destroy the society and distort the market in a destructive way.
Of course businesses are going to call a $15/hr minimum wage a "job killer." Just like they call health and safety regulations "job killers," environmental regulations "job killers," taxes "job killers," etc, etc, etc. When businesses don't get what they want, they stoke fears and make threats. They always have, and they always will. But what are we supposed to do, just fall to our knees and agree to whatever terms businesses dictate? Kiss our bosses' feet for giving us a job? No thanks.
Well duh of course a $15 an hour min wage will kill jobs. Whenever you raise the price of something demand goes down. The bottom line is that employers are not obligated to play sugar daddy to their workers. They're only gonna pay you what a job is worth. Paying someone $15 an hour to do something that a 16 year old kid can do with only 15 minutes of training is asinine at best. If people really have a problem with workers making a "non-living wage" then start your own business and hire them yourself..then you can pay them whatever you want.
If you, as a business, are not allowed to pay workers "market value" and you're essentially forced to pay them more than "supply and demand" will allow, its going to be much harder to stay in business....how do you decide to open a business knowing you have to pay everyone at least 15 bucks an hour?
IF someone is willing to bargain and do the job for 14 an hour, why shouldn't their resume hop to the front of the line?
If you, as a business, are not allowed to pay workers "market value" and you're essentially forced to pay them more than "supply and demand" will allow, its going to be much harder to stay in business....how do you decide to open a business knowing you have to pay everyone at least 15 bucks an hour?
IF someone is willing to bargain and do the job for 14 an hour, why shouldn't their resume hop to the front of the line?
You guys always forget that our country used to have no federal minimum wage. Go read a history book and see how well that worked out.
Of course businesses are going to call a $15/hr minimum wage a "job killer." Just like they call health and safety regulations "job killers," environmental regulations "job killers," taxes "job killers," etc, etc, etc. When businesses don't get what they want, they stoke fears and make threats. They always have, and they always will. But what are we supposed to do, just fall to our knees and agree to whatever terms businesses dictate? Kiss our bosses' feet for giving us a job? No thanks.
Next thing they will say child labor laws are "job killers," 40 hour work weeks...."job killers" vacation time "job killers"
They are borderline cultish on their rigid adherence to their "Free Market" religion there is no way to convince them otherwise.
The way the market works, I imagine that someday only the rich will be able to drink coffee.
The common working person making basic wages will find some other cheaper legal stimulant then coffee that will allow them to work longer hours for the wealthy and the market will then try to exploit that new found market.
People forget how expensive Tulips historically once were and what effect it had on the "wealth effect".
The rich just get it while they can. The market will sort it out eventually.
Last edited by NickofDiamonds; 06-27-2014 at 08:15 AM..
If you, as a business, are not allowed to pay workers "market value" and you're essentially forced to pay them more than "supply and demand" will allow, its going to be much harder to stay in business....how do you decide to open a business knowing you have to pay everyone at least 15 bucks an hour?
IF someone is willing to bargain and do the job for 14 an hour, why shouldn't their resume hop to the front of the line?
Last time I checked more people with more money in their hands is a good thing much of that money will go back to the economy. I am not sure why businesses think not paying more is gonna be good for their or anyone else's business.
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