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Small business data, as defined by the BLS, extends past what most think of. They consider operations with a few hundred employees, and tens of millions in sales, small.
Labor shortages have been predicted endlessly, and have never materialized after WWII.
You have no idea what you're talking about. I proved it already with the net exports fallacy you tried laying on us, so why should we take your word on this?
You're just rabble rousing. You get excited at the idea of making people feel hopeless. At first, I wasn't sure about this. But now I can see this shining through every comment you post. You get some sort of sick satisfaction telling others that there will not be enough jobs for them while in the back of your mind you have the assurance of knowing that you'll be retiring in a few short years and won't have to deal with this. So why don't you just leave those of us who have to live in this world alone?
There's no shortage of workers, there's only a shortage of employers willing to pay a fair wage. Once wealth stops accruing to the 1% and employers start paying their employees a fair wage, I will believe this nonsense about a worker shortage.
In the past (since we like to compare it to the present), employers would either raise their wages (which they haven't done) or train unemployed workers (which they also haven't done) if there was truly a labor shortage.
There's no shortage of workers, there's only a shortage of employers willing to pay a fair wage. Once wealth stops accruing to the 1% and employers start paying their employees a fair wage, I will believe this nonsense about a worker shortage.
I'm talking about skilled mold, die and tool makers, not mere button monkeys or machine tenders. Those are still good paying jobs, and most companies are having a hard time finding the workers for any wage. Where I work, the owner has been looking for 8 months now trying to find EDM and CNC guys with a precision mold and die background for $30/hr. We finally settled on a guy from Wisconsin who is at least trainable, because these workers simply don't exist anymore as far as we can tell. It may just be a case that the good ones are all employed, and someone has to start training their own if they need them. There is plenty of this work out there, and the margins are growing because there are fewer suppliers available to bid on the work.
Most large corporations stopped training these types of skilled workers over a decade ago. More like 2 decades ago. Short term profits, but no long term viability. What most corporations did was outsourced the bulk of their skilled labor work to smaller suppliers, and began accepting bids from the lowest bidders. With margins declining, suppliers could not afford to train their own workers to do the work and win bids simultaneously. Instead, they relied completely on the stagnant supply of skilled workers. Most of them will be hitting traditional retirement age shortly if they have not already retired. I've never met a die maker under the age of 50. Never met a mold maker whose hair wasn't gray or white. These guys won't be around forever, and there doesn't seem to be any young folks around who want to take their place.
Most of these guys would advise young folks to avoid these occupations though. You can make more money in most professions with a comparable skill/experience level. I will agree the money issue is what led up to this, but there are a lot of good paying jobs going unfilled these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
Small business data, as defined by the BLS, extends past what most think of. They consider operations with a few hundred employees, and tens of millions in sales, small.
Labor shortages have been predicted endlessly, and have never materialized after WWII.
Mostly because corporations can bribe politicians into allowing companies to import their own labor supply instead of paying more money. I don't think this will happen with regards to skilled labor though. The workers needed for much of this work would never move to the United States for less money than they can make at home. You'd be crazy to leave a good paying union job in Germany for what companies in this country expect to pay.
Like most corporations, I suspect you've kept most anything that can be automated in house, while you've outsourced most of your more labor/time intensive skilled work to bottom feeding suppliers. Things probably look great right now. Wait till your suppliers either stop racing to the bottom, close their doors, or place your work on a waitlist stretching many months. When a customer comes to us wanting work done, we basically tell them they gotta wait in line, and it's only getting longer...
In the past (since we like to compare it to the present), employers would either raise their wages (which they haven't done) or train unemployed workers (which they also haven't done) if there was truly a labor shortage.
Amen.
But tekkie and andywire want us all to think happy thoughts. Thinking them obviously makes them come true, right?
You have no idea what you're talking about. I proved it already with the net exports fallacy you tried laying on us, so why should we take your word on this?
You're just rabble rousing. You get excited at the idea of making people feel hopeless. At first, I wasn't sure about this. But now I can see this shining through every comment you post. You get some sort of sick satisfaction telling others that there will not be enough jobs for them while in the back of your mind you have the assurance of knowing that you'll be retiring in a few short years and won't have to deal with this. So why don't you just leave those of us who have to live in this world alone?
Check his post history. 2 prevailing topics that pop up quite frequently...
1) Companies like mine are eliminating jobs like crazy, placing even more into the ranks of unemployed/unemployable.
2) Unemployed people, or people working menial, low paying jobs are what's wrong with this country.
He also likes to ramble about how people like me, who don't have a degree, will be standing in the future version of the bread line.
Bob, I've seen all kinds of jobs eliminated due to technology, automation, and so on. Guess what... I've seen more good paid engineering jobs eliminated than jobs like mine.
But it really is sad to see so many menial jobs eliminated that at least allowed the less opportunistic amongst us to carry their own weight in this world. The plant floors used to be filled with good, honest people who didn't have much in the way of insight or intellect to offer. They still served their purpose by going to work every day and making enough to support their families. Try as they might, many of these people will never amount to much if they attempted to develop new, more advanced skill sets. Many are not college material. There was opportunity available for them before, but there's big money in marginalizing their worth. We all know the reasons why it will continue, but it's nothing to celebrate or cheer on.
All I see now are plant floors with robotic and computer controlled equipment. Modest functioning workers still have a place operating this type of equipment, but the jobs simply don't pay enough to live on or support a family. More and more, companies are favoring illegal migrant labor for these jobs, which further drives down wages. What's absolutely sickening is how these illegals are able to acquire various government handouts. I have no clue how it's done, but they all seem to have SNAP cards, or whatever they're called. Us tax payers are subsidizing the workforce that companies and corporations are too cheap to pay fairly. Of course their profits are up!
Is this what you want to see the country become? Some form of pseudo communistic bastion for the exploitation of poverty? I preferred the America where a work ethic could at least provide a modestly comfortable existence. I also preferred the America where Spanish wasn't a requirement for a job.
I don't think it's the poor amongst us who are the true parasites. Programs were always available for them. I think there are strategies in place that are sending average Americans into the poorhouse for the gain of a small minority. Sure, my 401K grew 15%. So what? My country is going broke as a few greedy parasites offshore their plunder to the Cayman Islands. Islands of prosperity in a sea of poverty...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtn
Amen.
But tekkie and andywire want us all to think happy thoughts. Thinking them obviously makes them come true, right?
So why can't any of the companies I have worked for find the workers I've described? You've successfully automated the packout process, dumping a $10/hr worker into the unemployment line. Big deal.
But it really is sad to see so many menial jobs eliminated that at least allowed the less opportunistic amongst us to carry their own weight in this world. The plant floors used to be filled with good, honest people who didn't have much in the way of insight or intellect to offer. They still served their purpose by going to work every day and making enough to support their families. Try as they might, many of these people will never amount to much if they attempted to develop new, more advanced skill sets. Many are not college material. There was opportunity available for them before, but there's big money in marginalizing their worth. We all know the reasons why it will continue, but it's nothing to celebrate or cheer on.
All I see now are plant floors with robotic and computer controlled equipment. Modest functioning workers still have a place operating this type of equipment, but the jobs simply don't pay enough to live on or support a family. You've successfully automated the packout process, dumping a $10/hr worker into the unemployment line. Big deal.
First, andywire, with 2 income families, blue collar families, like the rest of us, do fine. It is not a corps job to pay for a SAHM. Get into the PRESENT century.
Second, as I have told you several times we have not needed to lay off anyone in the 8.8 years I've been at this corp. We used voluntary attrition via retirement, and did not backfill spots , to obtain the cost savings of lower headcount via robotic packout operations.
Third, the reality is your first paragraph about low skilled factory work circa 1953 is over. I'm neither celebrating, nor mourning, other than the fact it has raised our efficiency and allowed what is left of US mfg to thrive. That is just reality,as are TWO income families being the norm. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I sense some sexism in your longing for the 1950s model where women stayed at home, btw.
First, andywire, with 2 income families, blue collar families, like the rest of us, do fine. It is not a corps job to pay for a SAHM. Get into the PRESENT century.
2 $10/hr workers combined bring home about 41K. That's if they both are working, which is 50/50 these days. If they both are working, whose watching the kids? But you have hinted that such a family has no business rearing children. That's a privileged only to be enjoyed by a small minority of the population, certainly not peasantry working class families. Gramma could do it, but she will have to work it into her Walmart door greeter hours. She really needs that money since CD rates are next to nothing, as are most conservative investments that the elderly traditionally depended on.
Second, as I have told you several times we have not needed to lay off anyone in the 8.8 years I've been at this corp. We used voluntary attrition via retirement, and did not backfill spots , to obtain the cost savings of lower headcount via robotic packout operations.
Of course you don't lay people off. It's difficult enough to find people willing to make a career doing a $10/hr job. Workers in your plant don't get laid off. They lay themselves off volunterily by finding somewhere else to work. Most companies don't lay off $10/hr workers. In fact, they will do anything possible to keep them, except paying them more.
Third, the reality is your first paragraph about low skilled factory work circa 1953 is over. I'm neither celebrating, nor mourning, other than the fact it has raised our efficiency and allowed what is left of US mfg to thrive. That is just reality,as are TWO income families being the norm. There is nothing wrong with that at all. I sense some sexism in your longing for the 1950s model where women stayed at home, btw.
Allowing what is left? The manufacturing sector has been thriving, except that doesn't translate into job growth any longer. We produce the same level of output today as we did 3 decades ago with a fraction of the workforce. The manufacturing sector has never been better in this country. The only tragedy is the death of "trickle down" economics. Instead of focusing on creating wealth, many corporations are primarily focused on hording it, or bleeding it from the fledgeling working class. The designs of most products today are cheap and tacky, instead of something aesthetically pleasing or desirable. Everything is cheapened to match our culture's desire to consume mass amounts of junk, instead of owning fewer, but higher quality items. And really, even if the average consumer wanted something that offered longevity and appeal, they couldn't afford it. Pretty sad that I have to shop garage and estate sales when I want to purchase items that were manufactured to last, and with quality in mind.
Companies and corporations are actively investing in their businesses. No doubt about it. The primary objective is almost always trimming headcounts, as you frequently discuss in detail. This puts further downward pressure on average incomes in this country, places more workers on the government dole, and creates a caste social structure similar to those found in 3rd world slums. If you believe this is progress, and the whole country would be better off looking like low wage, economically mediocre Tennessee, you must be thrilled with the direction we are headed.
Most research conducted in the manufacturing of goods also focuse on efficiency, and never over all quality. "How many workers can be eliminated?". When my dad was working as an engineer, that was always the first question asked. Like you, he celebrated knocking yet another couple unionized workers into the unemployment line. How ironic it was that HIS job was eventually eliminated. Mostly because we can do more today, with less, and that includes many good paying lines of work like engineering.
The real money today is not in creating wealth. That's the older, simpler, perhaps more archaic economic models, as I'm sure your cohorts would agree. I'm sure in your mind, that model has outlived is usefulness. The real money today is in keeping the actual wealth in the hands of as few competitors as possible. The middle class is almost conquered. The government is a bigger obstacle. Really though, that battle shouldn't be too difficult with the armies of parasitic lobbyist that pollute the landscape of Washington DC. They'll grease the wheels so a few back doors can be left unlocked, perhaps a few creative tax loopholes.
Today, it is rather easy to divert wealth from the working class to the coffers of the privileged few. First, import as much poverty as possible. Pit the working class American against impossible competition who will work for the bare necessities. Take advantage of government programs by instructing them how to utilize government handouts directed towards true poverty. Utilize the taxpayer's money to subsidize the workforce, keeping more returns "in house"... Genius! After all, who needs quality public education and drivable roads.
To really gain a competitive advantage, there's always the Cayman Islands. If it wasn't for greed, most Americans wouldn't even know they exist. Ironically, most American's could never point them out on a map. Perhaps some of that is due to the shelling out of our k-12 education system, which used to provide enough basic skills and traits to at least find a decent paying job. Not enough money to fix our roads anymore. The power grid is also grossly underfunded and dilapidated. But hey, corporate profits are up, right Google pays an effective tax rate of 1.2%. That'll make up for the once respectably paid working class who paid over 25% of their gains to the government. Not only do they not make enough to pay taxes anymore, they actually absorb tax money at the end of the year, and qualify for various handouts. What is this, Soviet Russia?
I would trade in my 401K today for a relatively stable America tomorrow, but I would be the exception. The lust for wealth consolidation is reaching record highs, and turning America into something of a dysfunctional laughingstock of the world. Unfortunately, when America sneezes, the world get's a cold. But hey, SHORT TERM corporate profits are up, right
I would enjoy an explanation of how my comments have hinted that women belong in the home... But I would agree, it would be nice if SOMEONE had enough free time to properly rear their child/children. It's frightening to think about what this country is transforming into, but I guess we had a good run.
As far as illegals go, they pay them under the table most of the time. Usually the guy speaks broken english and has illegitimate kids and the mother is on all kinds of welfare and section 8. She stays home all day and drives a jetta or a lexus. You can't just blame the illegal for gaming the system when the employer themselves are gaming the system. Instead of employing a legitimate citizen legally they can pay the illegal a couple hundred bucks in cash every week. I hate it when people try to defend this kind of thing too.
If you want to lash out at people abusing things there's plenty of sources that deserve the heat. Not just welfare recipients. There's corruption going on at ALL levels!
As far as illegals go, they pay them under the table most of the time. Usually the guy speaks broken english and has illegitimate kids and the mother is on all kinds of welfare and section 8. She stays home all day and drives a jetta or a lexus. You can't just blame the illegal for gaming the system when the employer themselves are gaming the system. Instead of pay even the legal minimum wage they can pay the illegal a couple hundred bucks in cash every week. I hate it when people try to defend this kind of thing too. If you want to lash out at people abusing things there's plenty of sources that deserve the heat.
I know for a fact that many large businesses in this area actively employ illegals. I've often outlined exactly how it's done. Large company or corporation goes to the temp agency and request a particular worker. They offer a wage well below the market rate for an American, and well below what you or I could live on without welfare. Even in the odd case an American applies, the temp agency usually won't bother. For the wage offered, the American is likely unreliable, addicted to drugs, incapable of showing up on time, etc. Many ads are written in Spanish, to avoid the possibility of dealing with an American. Naturally, an illegal is found. Regardless if the illegal has hijacked a social security number or found a way to cheat e verify, or does nothing at all to hide their status, the temp agency sends the worker over. If the actual employer is caught employing an illegal immigrant indirectly through a temp agency, there are no legal ramifications. The temp agency will face fines, and may possibly be forced to close their operation. No big deal. They could open their doors the next day in another location, and continue the process all over again. There are more than a few such operations in the area I live.
Corporations do quite well when they deal with local suppliers here. You don't have to go to the deep south to get slave wage unskilled laborers. In many cases, they're cheaper here in the Chicagoland area where the illegals flock for work. You would think most operations would try to hide the fact that they actively employ illegals... Not when the suits take a walk through of the facility They see nothing but dollar signs, especially when the majority of the cars in the parking lot look like they're not even fit to drive. Yet another reason corporate profits are through the roof.
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Google pays an effective tax rate of 1.2%. That'll make up for the once respectably paid working class who paid over 25% of their gains to the government. Not only do they not make enough to pay taxes anymore, they actually absorb tax money at the end of the year, and qualify for various handouts. What is this, Soviet Russia? 
