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It does indeed appear that DC will overtake Baltimore in population this year. Meanwhile SF continues to have over twice the population of Oakland, rendering comparisons of the DC/Baltimore and SF/Oakland relationships shaky at best.
You're taking this Baltimore / Oakland comparison waaaaay too literally. I said there's a significant distance difference and there's obviously a significant population difference (duh). Still, Baltimore is the traditional working class industrial center of our region in much the way Oakland is for the Bay Area. Aside from distance and size, Baltimore and San Jose have almost nothing in common culturally and socially.
You used the term "exurb" recently and it's long been understood that the eastern panhandle of West Virginia includes many people who commute to jobs in NoVa and DC:
Accordingly, your comment is best understood not as a rational observation as to how the boundaries of CSAs should be determined, but instead as an example of the extreme condescension that pgtitans recently observed. You really live up to the worst possible stereotype of a DC resident to refer to these folks as "fringe people with a lot of time on their hands."
You're so mean to me. It's really awful. Nevertheless, if you interpret a simple objective observation that is is not feasible to have a large metropolitan population center sprawled out in such a way that many people are commuting many, many miles from far flung, once-natural areas everyday as "condescending", then so be it. History has already proven me correct. My views have nothing to do with being a DC resident (I only chide you on that subject because you spend so much time attacking and deriding us, so someone has to balance your venom).
My views are based on building an interconnected system of transportation and infrastructure where people can drive, walk, bike, bus, or train effectively and we don't have to keep dispersing our region's wealth and wasting its tax money building infrastructure further and further away from large population centers that serves a relatively small population. The more people who commute from vast distances, the more problems we're going to have creating a functional region. We don't have the luxury of endorsing people for doing whatever they want wherever they want to anymore, regardless of its impact on a region where 5 million (or 8 million, depending on how you define it) other people have to also live. Sorry to burst your bubble with reality.
You're so mean to me. It's really awful. Nevertheless, if you interpret a simple objective observation that is is not feasible to have a large metropolitan population center sprawled out in such a way that many people are commuting many, many miles from far flung, once-natural areas everyday as "condescending", then so be it. History has already proven me correct. My views have nothing to do with being a DC resident (I only chide you on that subject because you spend so much time attacking and deriding us, so someone has to balance your venom).
My views are based on building an interconnected system of transportation and infrastructure where people can drive, walk, bike, bus, or train effectively and we don't have to keep dispersing our region's wealth and wasting its tax money building infrastructure further and further away from large population centers that serves a relatively small population. The more people who commute from vast distances, the more problems we're going to have creating a functional region. We don't have the luxury of endorsing people for doing whatever they want wherever they want to anymore, regardless of its impact on a region where 5 million (or 8 million, depending on how you define it) other people have to also live. Sorry to burst your bubble with reality.
It's not a "simple objective observation" to characterize people who commute to jobs in NoVa and DC from exurbs in West Virginia as "fringe people with a lot of time on their hands." You came up with that phrase, and it exemplified why pgtitans and others have noted the condescending attitude that you routinely display towards others who happen not to share your priorities or may not have your financial resources.
It's a self-defeating exercise on your part, because it only makes people who decide - or need - to commute long distances more certain that it's worth the effort to live further away from the self-appointed "experts" who live in or close to DC. It makes me cringe, as someone who lived in DC for a long time and has worked in DC for an even longer time. I'll readily admit that I would like DC to be seen as a place where people try to work for their fellow citizens, not pass judgment on them and treat them like "fringe people" (or people who live in "flyover territory"). If what you really wanted to do was advocate for making it easier for people who have a WV-NoVa or WV-DC commute to live closer to their jobs, you could have done that. Instead, you have first disparaged these folks, and now you're calling them a problem. Given half a chance, I'd expect you to go after their eating habits as well. Here's a tip: when you find yourself digging a hole for yourself, stop digging.
You're taking this Baltimore / Oakland comparison waaaaay too literally. I said there's a significant distance difference and there's obviously a significant population difference (duh). Still, Baltimore is the traditional working class industrial center of our region in much the way Oakland is for the Bay Area. Aside from distance and size, Baltimore and San Jose have almost nothing in common culturally and socially.
Numerous posters have already chimed in that comparing the DC/Baltimore relationship to that between SF and Oakland is tenuous at best. Perhaps all you really had in mind was the DC-centric observation that some people now commute to DC from Baltimore because it's cheaper, just as some people commute to SF from Oakland for the same reason. That still doesn't mean that your analogy is a sound one or that Baltimore can be viewed as the "traditional working class industrial center of our region." Until people started coming up with concepts such as CSAs and megalopolises, DC and Baltimore weren't even considered part of the same region and, even today, they are part of different MSAs.
Numerous posters have already chimed in that comparing the DC/Baltimore relationship to that between SF and Oakland is tenuous at best. Perhaps all you really had in mind was the DC-centric observation that some people now commute to DC from Baltimore because it's cheaper, just as some people commute to SF from Oakland for the same reason. That still doesn't mean that your analogy is a sound one or that Baltimore can be viewed as the "traditional working class industrial center of our region." Until people started coming up with concepts such as CSAs and megalopolises, DC and Baltimore weren't even considered part of the same region and, even today, they are part of different MSAs.
Even further, San Francisco and Oakland are part of the same MSA. If we wanted to do an SF/Oakland relationship, I'd say New York and Jersey City might be a better one (although the size differential is far different). Baltimore and DC have two fundamentally different CBDs with differing radii, commuting patterns, and transportation networks, albeit moderately interlinked. In the San Francisco area, the East Bay in general is a giant group of bedroom communities for San Francisco and, to an extent, the South Bay, whereas only a minority of people actually commute from the Baltimore area to DC.
Numerous posters have already chimed in that comparing the DC/Baltimore relationship to that between SF and Oakland is tenuous at best. Perhaps all you really had in mind was the DC-centric observation that some people now commute to DC from Baltimore because it's cheaper, just as some people commute to SF from Oakland for the same reason. That still doesn't mean that your analogy is a sound one or that Baltimore can be viewed as the "traditional working class industrial center of our region." Until people started coming up with concepts such as CSAs and megalopolises, DC and Baltimore weren't even considered part of the same region and, even today, they are part of different MSAs.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never actually lived in Baltimore. If you had, you would probably understand better the connections DC and Baltimore have -and have had for many years.
They're very different cities - DC being the more professional / 21st century economy city like San Francisco and Baltimore being the more 20th century industrial / 21st century artistic economy like Oakland. Many people in Baltimore despise DC for any number of reasons, but to pretend that Baltimore and DC are distant, disconnected entities strikes me as incorrect. Just spend a morning in traffic on 295 between the two or on the commuter rail.
Anyway, irrelevant topic. They are what they are no matter what we decide to call them.
It's not a "simple objective observation" to characterize people who commute to jobs in NoVa and DC from exurbs in West Virginia as "fringe people with a lot of time on their hands." You came up with that phrase, and it exemplified why pgtitans and others have noted the condescending attitude that you routinely display towards others who happen not to share your priorities or may not have your financial resources.
I only meant "fringe people" in the sense that there are only a relative handful willing to do the epic commutes, so they are a statistical fringe that I don't feel should be included in the MSA, not that the individuals themselves are in some way "fringe". I don't know them, but I'm sure they're stand up, great people. I can certainly see how I could have been clearer about that.
Quote:
It's a self-defeating exercise on your part, because it only makes people who decide - or need - to commute long distances more certain that it's worth the effort to live further away from the self-appointed "experts" who live in or close to DC. It makes me cringe, as someone who lived in DC for a long time and has worked in DC for an even longer time. I'll readily admit that I would like DC to be seen as a place where people try to work for their fellow citizens, not pass judgment on them and treat them like "fringe people" (or people who live in "flyover territory"). If what you really wanted to do was advocate for making it easier for people who have a WV-NoVa or WV-DC commute to live closer to their jobs, you could have done that. Instead, you have first disparaged these folks, and now you're calling them a problem. Given half a chance, I'd expect you to go after their eating habits as well. Here's a tip: when you find yourself digging a hole for yourself, stop digging.
I also agree that judging people only makes them trench deeper into their lifestyle choices, which is the root of so much of your angst on here. You feel like people, including me who you abstractly reference more often than anyone else, are judging your lifestyle and you don't like them for it. Fair enough. Many who, when told they can't smoke in public because of the known health effects on others, want to do it more. Sprawl is a major problem that has governments at all levels in all metro areas, non-profits, and businesses working to address because we now know the effects it has on water and air quality, traffic, open space, infrastructure, families, and inefficient land use.
Again, though, this isn't about DC or about experts or flyover country (I'm probably the last person who would claim people in big cities or coasts are in some way superior to others, but that's another topic). It's about building a region that works, including Tysons and Silver Spring and Columbia (can we count that as one of ours?). At some point, we have to draw the line and say we've built out enough. How do we make the most of what we have? How do we find a way for people to afford to raise families with some room to run around and connection to nature without having to commute 2 hours each way to get it? I don't think many of the people commuting from W. Va actually want to be doing that commute, and I think the ones who do want a more rural lifestyle should be able to live in a truly rural setting that far away without having it become Fairfax 10 years later. It's a failure of design and policy, and perhaps a desire for a bigger home on their part, that they feel they have to. It's not good for family time or energy consumption or anything like that.
So, my judgment isn't against individuals or people doing whatever they have to to get by. It's against the system we've allowed to develop. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you've never actually lived in Baltimore. If you had, you would probably understand better the connections DC and Baltimore have -and have had for many years.
They're very different cities - DC being the more professional / 21st century economy city like San Francisco and Baltimore being the more 20th century industrial / 21st century artistic economy like Oakland. Many people in Baltimore despise DC for any number of reasons, but to pretend that Baltimore and DC are distant, disconnected entities strikes me as incorrect. Just spend a morning in traffic on 295 between the two or on the commuter rail.
Anyway, irrelevant topic. They are what they are no matter what we decide to call them.
Then I guess you'll fall off the tree. I lived outside of Baltimore for five years. It's not an issue of treating Baltimore and DC as "distant, disconnected entities," but instead simply recognizing that Baltimore is not Ed McMahon to DC's Johnny Carson, or Oakland to DC's San Francisco. Oakland is across the East Bay from SF and part of the same MSA as SF; Baltimore is a greater distance from DC and the center of its own, substantial MSA. If people in Baltimore despise DC - and some do - one reason is the effort by some DC-area residents to suggest that Baltimore has now been reduced to basking in the reflected glory of DC.
I only meant "fringe people" in the sense that there are only a relative handful willing to do the epic commutes, so they are a statistical fringe that I don't feel should be included in the MSA, not that the individuals themselves are in some way "fringe". I don't know them, but I'm sure they're stand up, great people. I can certainly see how I could have been clearer about that.
In terms of statistical analysis, it's been well-documented for some time that enough people in eastern West Virginia commute to jobs in NoVa and DC to warrant the area's inclusion in the MSA. It's due in part to Loudoun County having adopted land-use policies designed to prevent additional development in Western Loudoun, which led to denser development further west in eastern West Virginia. That may raise interesting questions about land-use policy and "the law of unintended consequences," but it doesn't warrant taking pot shots at a group of people.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
I also agree that judging people only makes them trench deeper into their lifestyle choices, which is the root of so much of your angst on here. You feel like people, including me who you abstractly reference more often than anyone else, are judging your lifestyle and you don't like them for it. Fair enough. Many who, when told they can't smoke in public because of the known health effects on others, want to do it more. Sprawl is a major problem that has governments at all levels in all metro areas, non-profits, and businesses working to address because we now know the effects it has on water and air quality, traffic, open space, infrastructure, families, and inefficient land use.
Nice try, but fail. I'm fortunate enough at present to enjoy a commuter's trifecta: a very reasonable drive to work when I choose to drive all the way in, a short drive to a Metro station with parking, and a short walk to a bus stop. It may not be Margaritaville, but it doesn't give rise to a lot of angst, either. But I also realize that part of this was due to a combination of lucky timing, good fortune and hard work, and that others may confront different situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly
Again, though, this isn't about DC or about experts or flyover country (I'm probably the last person who would claim people in big cities or coasts are in some way superior to others, but that's another topic). It's about building a region that works, including Tysons and Silver Spring and Columbia (can we count that as one of ours?). At some point, we have to draw the line and say we've built out enough. How do we make the most of what we have? How do we find a way for people to afford to raise families with some room to run around and connection to nature without having to commute 2 hours each way to get it? I don't think many of the people commuting from W. Va actually want to be doing that commute, and I think the ones who do want a more rural lifestyle should be able to live in a truly rural setting that far away without having it become Fairfax 10 years later. It's a failure of design and policy, and perhaps a desire for a bigger home on their part, that they feel they have to. It's not good for family time or energy consumption or anything like that.
So, my judgment isn't against individuals or people doing whatever they have to to get by. It's against the system we've allowed to develop. Sorry for the confusion.
It's fine to make that argument on public policy grounds, and there's undoubtedly one to be made. Where I part company with you is that I'm less certain at any given time as to exactly what "we" want, because "we" includes a lot of people with different perspectives from mine or yours. The people who commute to NoVa or DC from West Virginia may have their own opinions on the desirability of their lifestyles: just as they do not deserve to be denigrated with a phrase like "fringe people with a lot of time on their hands," they do not need to be patronized by people in DC who assume that they would prefer to live in a smaller house if only they saw the light.
What I see in a lot of your posts is an apparent frustration that politics and public policy judgments are inherently messy and require the accommodation of a very wide variety of viewpoints. It leads to frequent snide remarks about "sprawl" communities and their residents and, at times, efforts to foist misleading narratives (such as the notion that DC is now largely a city of intact rowhouses full of "middle-class" families playing in lovely city parks) on others, in order to try and fast-forward into the present an urban future that may or may not occur.
I don't know. I'm not the biggest fan of the whole CSA thing. Baltimore is not a suburb of DC. Overall I think the MSA is a better indicator of a city's size. This still makes DC the 7th largest city in the country. Pretty impressive. We beat Atlanta so says wikipedia. Woohoo! However, to deny that the suburbs of DC and Baltimore aren't intermingled is silly. Many in Howard county commute to DC and her "vanilla" suburbs and vice versa. Just got heard from a headhunter about a gig in Columbia. Can't remember the last time a headhunter wanted to talk to me about a job in the District. It seems that jobs pay the same in the suburbs as the city. Which seems unfair since commuter costs are so much higher. Paying for my own parking? Gadzooks! It really was quite a shock.
I digress. I think the CSA versus MSA thing should be looked at in two ways. Yes I think CSA is a good indicator of the business and media market. However, MSA gives a more accurate picture.
Yeah calling folks in West Virginia fringe people isn't very nice. Those in West Virginia that commute all the way into DC are few and far in between. The majority are commuting to jobs near Dulles or Tysons Corner at the most. In my opinion there seem to be more jobs in the suburbs than the city. Maybe because personally I do kinda want to move to the city where the fun (and boys) is, but the commute to the suburbs where the jobs are would be a killer.
The age of the super commuter is drawing to a close. It has to with gas prices like they are. Although I don't know how I feel about the lucky urban dwellers who live close to their job who judge the suburbanites. I was at a party and I actually met an example of the whole CSA thing. He lived in Annapolis but commuted to George Mason over in Fairfax. He says he loves his house. I assumed he was working in Maryland before getting the job in George Mason. Although I'd just move. In my profession I get gigs. This makes it hard to pick a place to settle down because today's 20 minute can turn into an hour fairly quickly. Which is the case for a lot of people who works in the suburbs less so for those with the government agencies downtown. So for the DC area is just so decentralized particularly Northern Virginia. So yeah CSA and MSA are both useful tools.
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