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I think by most standards New Orleans schools pre-Katrina were among the worst of the worst urban school districts. Don't know if they've improved post-Katrina.
That is not the aregument I'm looking for, but lets get passed that. I've established that the people who I want to debate aren't responding to my orginal post. I do want challenge some of the comments in your post. On what basis can you make the claim that "Awesome Parents in the city are willing to put in the work, and have to by nature of not having children enrolled in a "good" school, while "Awesome Parents" in the suburbs are essentially handing over all education responsibilities to the "good" school, feeling safe in the fact their kids will get a good education with no extra effort put in themselves." What data is out there that suggest that parents in the city put in the work and that suburban parents hand over their responsibilites? I'm from new orleans and I can tell you that the public school system is a joke, so I doubt most city parents are willing to put in the work. "I'm sure there are Awesome Parents in the suburbs, but a lot of them are probably less than awesome." On what basis can you make that claim? If a major city has a struggling public school system and the suburbs have better public schools, how can you say awesome parents in the suburbs are probably less awesome than parents in the city?
Actually, I believe there is data to support that suburban schools get more parental involvement. That is an inconvenient truth.
People posting garbage such as the red obviously have not been inside a school, city OR suburban, in a long time, nor do they know any parents of students. I can give you an example: My daughter was on an 8th grade soccer team at her middle school. She played a game at a low-income school in Boulder. Our school, the away team, had way more parents in attendance than the home team, and the home team couldn't even field a full team.
Actually, I believe there is data to support that suburban schools get more parental involvement. That is an inconvenient truth.
People posting garbage such as the red obviously have not been inside a school, city OR suburban, in a long time.
This study shows that about 39% of urban kids regularly "talk about programs at school" compared with 42% of suburban kids. amount of kids discussing "school activities" and "things studied in class" is within a percentage point exactly the same in urban and suburban.
62% of urban kids' parents had "attended a meeting" compared with 58% of suburban kids'. 71% of urban kids' parents had "spoke to a teacher" compared with 67% of suburban kids. "visited your class" 36% / 31% urban/suburban. "Attended a school event" - 61% / 64% urban / suburban.
the study continues with numbers of parents that "limit time with friends," "require chores," etc. the urban/suburban numbers continue to be practically identical.
this study, at least, suggests that your claim is false. and they aren't even controlling for things like family income. HOWEVER, this study does include both suburban and urban private schools.
as a parent, if i lived in the suburbs, that would mean an additional 166 hours a year commuting (assuming additional 20-minute one-way commute). plus soccer practice, the grocery, whatever, these things can be 15 minute drives one-way, there is no public transportation usually. i could see how this might take away from time spent helping with schoolwork.
This study shows that about 39% of urban kids regularly "talk about programs at school" compared with 42% of suburban kids. amount of kids discussing "school activities" and "things studied in class" is within a percentage point exactly the same in urban and suburban.
62% of urban kids' parents had "attended a meeting" compared with 58% of suburban kids'. 71% of urban kids' parents had "spoke to a teacher" compared with 67% of suburban kids. "visited your class" 36% / 31% urban/suburban. "Attended a school event" - 61% / 64% urban / suburban.
the study continues with numbers of parents that "limit time with friends," "require chores," etc. the urban/suburban numbers continue to be practically identical.
this study, at least, suggests that your claim is false. and they aren't even controlling for things like family income. HOWEVER, this study does include both suburban and urban private schools.
another study
as a parent, if i lived in the suburbs, that would mean an additional 166 hours a year commuting (assuming additional 20-minute one-way commute). plus soccer practice, the grocery, whatever, these things can be 15 minute drives one-way, there is no public transportation usually. i could see how this might take away from time spent helping with schoolwork.
The problem with this study is that I can easily look up a study that shows suburban students outperform the urban students. We would be back to square one.
This study shows that about 39% of urban kids regularly "talk about programs at school" compared with 42% of suburban kids. amount of kids discussing "school activities" and "things studied in class" is within a percentage point exactly the same in urban and suburban.
62% of urban kids' parents had "attended a meeting" compared with 58% of suburban kids'. 71% of urban kids' parents had "spoke to a teacher" compared with 67% of suburban kids. "visited your class" 36% / 31% urban/suburban. "Attended a school event" - 61% / 64% urban / suburban.
the study continues with numbers of parents that "limit time with friends," "require chores," etc. the urban/suburban numbers continue to be practically identical.
this study, at least, suggests that your claim is false. and they aren't even controlling for things like family income. HOWEVER, this study does include both suburban and urban private schools.
as a parent, if i lived in the suburbs, that would mean an additional 166 hours a year commuting (assuming additional 20-minute one-way commute). plus soccer practice, the grocery, whatever, these things can be 15 minute drives one-way, there is no public transportation usually. i could see how this might take away from time spent helping with schoolwork.
I am not surprised to know you have no kids, in school or out.
I am not lying.
Here is another study:
http://www.ncpc.org/resources/files/...ve-summary.pdf Parents in urban areas were more likely than parents in suburban or rural areas to choose
each potential limiting factor in getting involved in school-related activities.
And another: Why Urban Parents Resist Involvement in their Children's Elementary Education The data revealed that teachers are frustrated with a lack of parental involvement in literacy activities at home and at school.
Many researchers have examined the challenges of involving low-income urban families in their children's education.
It is widely known that low-income urban parents are reluctant to be involved in their children's education.
The problem with this study is that I can easily look up a study that shows suburban students outperform the urban students. We would be back to square one.
People always say that and invariably they also don't take the time to read and understand the studies. They just take something binary.
"oh how can i know whether eggs are good for me or not? one study says they're great and one study says they aren't!" it's just intellectual laziness.
For starters, the study i mentioned wasn't even about student performance.
The problem with this study is that I can easily look up a study that shows suburban students outperform the urban students. We would be back to square one.
See, that's the problem. You don't consider evidence contrary to your view as evidence, and are asking people who disagree with your view to support an assumption that you don't appear to support either.
See, that's the problem. You don't consider evidence contrary to your view as evidence, and are asking people who disagree with your view to support an assumption that you don't appear to support either.
Believing something doesn't make it true.
I have stated that I don't believe all suburban schools are better than city schools. I do not believe all suburban parents are better than city parents. What I have argued against was the broad generalizations that people make. It is not accurate to say that city parents tend be more involved with their kids than suburban parents just hand their kids of to the teachers. Its also not accurate to say suburban parents are more invloved than city parents. Those are just sweeping generalizations.
Yeah, you're entirely correct. I have looked and looked for this kind of data but it appears that no one is aggregating it. This has been what I've seen, but I'm biased, like everyone. I shouldn't have said that, it was over the top. My intent was to get to the heart of what is a "good school" and what are we really seeking. We look at governmental reports and rankings and just try to provide the best for our kids -- but are we, really? Why do we put so much trust in BS metrics? Why are we so scared of the unknown? Is it always better to have SOME limited and heavily confounded data or NO data at all?
Data is useful to evaluate things like schools - but it should be obvious that data is usually incomplete and doesn't tell the whole story.
Some of the indicators that matter to me (in no particular order)
- school safety
- test scores
- graduation rates
- curriculum offered
- general quality if the facilities
- financial strength of the school system
It is up to me to evaluate the quality of the data I have. Some of it is nearly useless - such as spending per pupil.
Eventually I want to get a "yes" answer if I ask the question "will my children do well in these schools?"
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