What is the difference between the Scots and the Irish? (houses, tenants)

[cokatie]

Originally Posted by kell5252

Portadown, What he is saying is correct historically. He is talking about the US by the way just to be clear. In places like Tennessee, there were areas where there was no Catholic Church within travelling distance, so Irish Catholics had to join a protestant church, such as Baptists. Which they would tend to do since the only other option was not go to church at all.

No. Poratadown is correct. The bulk of the people who refer to themselves as Scots-Irish in the American South are descendents of Northern Irish Presbyterians. No Irish Roman Catholic would convert simply because there were no churches around. That would not be a valid reason. During the 17-1800's in America, Roman Catholic priests (Jesuits and Franciscans largely) travelled through all territories offering mass as part of their missionary efforts. Although I WILL admit to it being few and far between - giving a nod to issues with transportation and the expanse of the areas covered.

As to one of the posters who suggested his realitives were forced to convert, that would not be an unlikely scenario depending on the time period and the particular geographic area it took place in.

[kell5252]

Originally Posted by cokatie

No. Poratadown is correct. The bulk of the people who refer to themselves as Scots-Irish in the American South are descendents of Northern Irish Presbyterians. No Irish Roman Catholic would convert simply because there were no churches around. That would not be a valid reason. During the 17-1800's in America, Roman Catholic priests (Jesuits and Franciscans largely) travelled through all territories offering mass as part of their missionary efforts. Although I WILL admit to it being few and far between - giving a nod to issues with transportation and the expanse of the areas covered.

As to one of the posters who suggested his realitives were forced to convert, that would not be an unlikely scenario depending on the time period and the particular geographic area it took place in.

You don't need to explain to me who the Scots-Irish in the American South are. I know who they are. My Father was from Ireland, Irish Catholic. And I converted to a Protestant sect. I know plenty of Irish Catholics who have converted for a variety of reasons, both past and present.

I'm not sure where you live. You assert that Portadown is correct, but don't provide any sources to support that assertion. It is through my reading of the history of Eastern Tennessee that I became aware of Irish Catholics converting to Protestantism. I can certainly go back and locate the sources and come back here and cite them if you wish.

There is a difference between historical fact and historical perceptions.

The historical perception may be that no Irish Catholic would convert to Protestanism. And I certainly am aware of this perception.
I base my assertion on two things. First my personal knowledge and awareness of Irish Catholic family members, aquaintenances, etc. who have converted to Protestantism. And secondly, reading the history of Eastern Tennessee. Certainly, due to historical perceptions, I did not expect to learn that Irish Catholics had converted to Protestanism because it goes against the prevailing perception. But I was presented with historial information that showed that to be the case.

It might well be true that a Irish Catholic would not convert to Presbyterianism due to the sectarian history, but more likely would convert to Baptist. Which if you look at the Baptist Church in a lot of Appalacian States, you'll see preachers called Murphy, and other traditionally Irish Catholic names.

[cokatie]

Kell, I certainly don't mean to upset you, and I'm sorry if I did. You seem to be mixing timelines and geographic areas which is throwing me. When you talk about yourself, the people you know and your Dad you are talking about the present. I was basing my response on the 17-1800's. You seem to be specific about Eastern Tennessee whereas I am basing my statements on the American South.

In keeping with the OP's original question (from 2009!) over what is Scots-Irish in the American South, I still maintain that this description was used to describe settlers from the Uslter region of Ireland. I offer here, from Wikipedia, a definition of that (as requested):

According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups ,[3] in 1790 there were 400,000 United States residents of Irish birth or ancestry, with half of this group descended from the Irish province of Ulster, and half from the other three provinces of Ireland. Most of those of Ulster origin eventually came to be known in America as the "Scotch-Irish." They were descendants of Scottish and English tenant farmers who had been settled in Ireland by the British government during the 17th century Plantation of Ulster.[4] An estimated 250,000 migrated to America during the colonial era.[5] The Scotch-Irish settled mainly in the colonial "back country" of the Appalachian Mountain region, and became the prominent ethnic strain in the culture that developed there.

During the colonial period, Scotch-Irish Protestants settled in the southern Appalachian backcountry and in the Carolina piedmont.[11] They became the primary cultural group in these areas, and their descendants were in the vanguard of westward movement into Tennessee and Kentucky, and across the Mississippi into Arkansas, Missouri and Texas.

The Scotch-Irish who settled in the back country of colonial America were largely Presbyterians. The establishment of many settlements in the remote back-country put a strain on the ability of the Presbyterian Church to meet the new demand for qualified, college-educated clergy. Religious groups such as the Baptists and Methodists had no higher education requirement for their clergy to be ordained, and these groups readily provided ministers to meet the demand of the growing Scotch-Irish settlements.[50] By about 1810, Baptist and Methodist churches were in the majority, and the descendants of the Scotch-Irish today remain predominantly Baptist or Methodist.[51] They were avid participants in the revivals taking place during the Great Awakening from the 1740s to the 1840s.[citation needed] They take pride in their Irish heritage because they identify with the values ascribed to the Scotch-Irish who played a major role in the American Revolution and in the development of American culture.[52] The strongly held religious beliefs of the Scotch-Irish led to the emergence of the Bible Belt, where evangelical Protestantism continues to play a large role today.

[Portadown_Madman]

Originally Posted by cokatie

No. Poratadown is correct. The bulk of the people who refer to themselves as Scots-Irish in the American South are descendents of Northern Irish Presbyterians. .

Also they are descended from Anglicans.


What people are ignorant of in history is that in 1690 there was over 40,000 English people in Northern Ireland. some Quaker but the most were Anglicans

The Scots numberd over 120,000

the English settled county Armagh and Fermanagh they also settled the now republican county of cavan. they also settled in county Coleraine in small numbers.

They became a minority after the great 2nd wave that introduced thousands of Scots presbyterians.

Fact is today, most people in the north are of both Scots and English descent.

[Portadown_Madman]

Originally Posted by kell5252

called Murphy, and other traditionally Irish Catholic names.

LOL

A surname in Northern Ireland means Nothing!!!!

there have been plenty of loyalist terrorist with traditionally Irish catholic surnames...aka Murphy leader of the shankill butcher, McCann shot and killed 8 catholics in a bar.


Ken Maginnis ..Ulster loyalist politician
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gerry Adams

Bobby Sands

Bobby McWilliams


All catholics ..with scots and english surnames.

[Fear&Whiskey]

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say a surname means NOTHING! I grew up in NW London and I've never met a Murphy who doesn't come from an Irish family background in my life. There are a thousand different reasons why someone with a Catholic or protestant surname may have different religious or political affiliations. They could be the child of a mixed marriage and decided to follow in the mother's footsteps for instance. Or they could be a family that through time and geographical circumstances have gradually become absorbed into English or Irish culture over generations and thus changed religion. Alot of Irish families were also changed or were issued common English names such as Smith when arriving in the UK for employment but stayed true to their Irish Catholic heritage but retained the English sounding name when returning to Ireland.

But these exceptions rarely prove to be the rule. Murphy is an intrinsically Irish name whichever way you look at it. And if an extremely miniscule minority have converted to protestant over the course of history it is a fact that taken in a context of probability proves NOTHING!

The troubles also produced an unholy alliance between the London underworld of villains which happily worked with the IRA during the troubles, carrying out many hits also. Did they suddenly have a road to Damascus conversion to Catholicism too? Or was the only thing that converted them the cash? They certainly showed no allegiance to the Crown that's for sure.

Regardless, most protestants have descended from Catholicism anyway if you roll back history far enough and England was a country of Celts long before Ulster or the word protestant even began a rumbling in Henry VIII's famously gargantuan jellyroll so if we are going to play history's superior morality game then I simply have just have five words for you old chap......."Get Orrrff moy land ye scoundrel!!!!"

[paull805]

not much both religiously divided countries. and off course dislike of english (or like of english and britain) we seem to hate each other and everyone else lol

[Portadown_Madman]

Originally Posted by Fear&Whiskey

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say a surname means NOTHING! I grew up in NW London "

That say it all, you GREW up in LONDON.

you did not grow up on the streets of NI.

why dont you come over here and take a look at some surnames in protestant East Belfast. O'Neil, murphy, flannagan.

then take a walk into nationalist West Belfast, to see planter surnames

Adams, whitehead, foster, smith and elliot.

you dont have a clue

[Fear&Whiskey]

Exactly, 'SOME' surnames. And there are dozens of reasons as to why someone living in Northern Ireland with an Irish or English sounding surname may have adapted or converted to another name or religion but so what? There are plenty of Catholics living in East Belfast too by the way, it's not a protestant dictatorship. This isn't the 1960's anymore as much as you'd like it to still be what you no doubt reminisce as 'the good ol' days'.

7.5 % of people living in East Belfast are Catholic you know. They weren't all burned from their homes during the course of the troubles. Catholics will outnumber protestants in Northern Ireland within another ten years so your superiority complex is futile. Get over it, let it go, you'll feel much better for it I promise ye .

I've been to Belfast dozens of times by the way and one of the main reasons why many Catholics took on protestant sounding names or converted to protestant is because Catholics were treated like second class citizens in Northern Ireland for too long. Some made the choice to gain employment and a better standard of living and when faced with a change of name just to gain acceptance and a chance to feed your children it's not surprising many decided to live beneath the pretence of a false name. Go to the United States and many African Americans will carry English or Irish sounding names but does that mean that there is no historical context or history behind those names? Of course not.

Your ignorance around Catholicism is also pretty astounding. It's not just an Irish religion you know. England was a Catholic country long before Henry VIII concocted a religion that allowed him to scythe off his wive's heads and allow his eminent pork belly a little more than an extra dish of chicken wings on the side when he got inevitably bored with himself or his sixth or seventh wife again.

Catholicism never went away in England and like it or not there's a parish in every town in the UK and a Catholic Church for every three or four streets in my neck of the woods. Many with as many Poles, Italians, Columbians, Spanish, African and Asian in their congregations as there are Irish. Whatever your beliefs surrounding religious self-righteousness when you look at the multi-cultural diversity of a parish Church (Catholic or Church Of England) these days you'd be pretty hard pressed to cling to the bitter squabbles of the past. Society's moved on, and if you'd take the trouble to look outside the narrow confines of your 'East Belfast Rules!!' mentality maybe you'd see that for yourself too.

[Iolo]

I think the theory that any part of Britain was ever 'Catholic' in the sense you mean, Fear and Whiskey, could do with debating, but I think we can say pretty definitely that there were extremely few Roman Catholics anywhere in it from the Glorious Revolution until the Irish Famine and Newman's Oxford folly. What's more, the tiny inbred minority of servants and tenants hanging about Old Papist backwoods big houses were about the last type to move to Ulster or anywhere else. The large RC population in England and Scotland now is mainly Irish and Polish by background.