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Now, Toledo is just turning the corner for this, but for cities who have developed their urban environments, you can look at the other side of that same coin. You can live in a boring place where nothing happens and you can't walk to anywhere you'd want to go. Or you can live in an exciting social place where you can walk to any dining, drinking, shopping, or entertainment option you'd like. What would you choose?
It's all about how you look at it, much like climate. 90 degrees is paradise to some, hell to others.
I've been saying something like this for a long time. If you like to spend time in crowds, see movies and plays, like to drink, shop for books, try exotic foods, have a good income, and are liberal on social issues (especially if you live an alternative lifestyle), a thriving downtown is heaven. There are tons of places to meet, things to see, and people to do.
But, if your idea of good living includes peace and quiet, astronomy and breeding Great Pyrenees dogs, Downtown anywhere is awful.
Some of us liberals like peace and quiet, books, and exotic foods. Thriving downtowns are good even for people who spend most of their week in quieter places.
The problem with "upscale urban" is that it prices everyone out except the elites. This is now happening in Pittsburgh, where properties downtown and the "upscale" core neighborhoods are not affordable for most young people.
The reason I love Toledo so much is because you can afford to live downtown or in the Old West End, two great urban neighborhoods, for $400 a month. You can't beat that!
Youre right. The thing is, as more development of condos and loft apartments occurs, the city must step in and demand that some percentage of residential units be available to low income residents. Gentrification is wonderful to a lot of people, but care has to be taken to not just uproot a whole socio-economic group of people and dump them off somewhere else strategically to clear the way for a rich peoples playground. Downtown is not for solely for the middle & upper class. Its fine to have many higher priced places, but theyre must be a variety, otherwise the downtown area will just transform into an elite enclave.
Like you said properties in a lot of gentrifying downtowns are becoming unaffordable to young people....young people who probably pioneered the downtown rebirth to begin with. So what if some yuppies and empty nesters can afford a $300K condo or $1,200 rent. These people arent the ones infusing the area with unique culture that makes the area interesting and enjoyable. Theyre just the ones reveling in that culture. You need the young poor college students and artists because theyre the basis of why the area is even cool to begin with. The tolerable thing about the potential pricing out of these younger people, is that they have the fortitude and courage to just push out into sketchier neighborhoods to carve out a lifestyle. If this took place in Toledo, these younger artsy types might potentially help transform some other neighborhood into a hip, thriving area, maybe something akin to Coventry Village in Cleveland, except maybe ours will be like Five Points, or something. Regardless, the ideal scenario is to keep Downtown viable for them as well.
The most severe situation is uprooting the lower income, less educated, demographics and replanting them somewhere else. Not to go off on a tirade about public housing projects, but they are a complete failure. They perpetuate crime and are psychologically stifiling settings to live in. Grouping people who are struggling and frustrated together is a recipe for disaster. For instance, what will happen with the residents of the Brand Whitlock homes? Will they just be placed in some type of apartment complex setting out on the periphery away from our hot new downtown? If I were those people, I would kind of take it as a slap in the face, as if theyre telling me im nothing but a nuissance, just because I dont make much money. Its fine to demolish an old housing project for good new development but make sure the former residents are redistributed fairly and in good quality places. These people deserve to have viable housing options Downtown as well, and these people will be a vital ingredient in the revitalization of the city.
There's no reason for residents of one declining rust-belt city to hate on another declining rust-belt city. Downtown Flint is pretty cool.
Downtown Flint has much more work to do. What highrise was it that they were contemplating tearing down because it was at risk of collapsing? Outside of that, Flint has major, major issues it needs to work on, and I am not just talking about crime. Yes, every older, industrial city has its work cut out for them, but Toledo is in another league over Flint. Toledo could be more in line with Buffalo.
The most severe situation is uprooting the lower income, less educated, demographics and replanting them somewhere else. Not to go off on a tirade about public housing projects, but they are a complete failure. They perpetuate crime and are psychologically stifiling settings to live in. Grouping people who are struggling and frustrated together is a recipe for disaster. For instance, what will happen with the residents of the Brand Whitlock homes? Will they just be placed in some type of apartment complex setting out on the periphery away from our hot new downtown? If I were those people, I would kind of take it as a slap in the face, as if theyre telling me im nothing but a nuissance, just because I dont make much money. Its fine to demolish an old housing project for good new development but make sure the former residents are redistributed fairly and in good quality places. These people deserve to have viable housing options Downtown as well, and these people will be a vital ingredient in the revitalization of the city.
Although I do agree with you regarding gentrification 200%, however that is not likely going to happen here in Toledo unfortunately. Most do look at the residents of the Brandwhitlocks as a nuissance and as I was told once the buildings are torn down, most of the residents will be relocated to Spencer Township I believe, not 100% accurate on that, but I did hear they were going to be relocated out there. Thats actually one of the reasons why there are more vacancies in the Brandwhitlock homes. They are going to start demolishing them soon so residents are relocating to other areas with section 8. Similar to Chicago when they demolished most of their projects on the south and west side of the city as well as Cabrini Green on the northside. Residents were relocated to other parts of the city as well as the southside suburbs and Gary, IN and the areas that once housed CHA residents were redeveloped with very little of them in mind. Cabrini Green is a perfect example of what you're talking about. Go over to Division and Laramie and it looks totally different. I also found out that alot of resident of Cabrini Green were relocated to areas as far away as Iowa City, IA.
Last edited by lastonestanding; 07-06-2011 at 10:10 AM..
Downtown Flint has much more work to do. What highrise was it that they were contemplating tearing down because it was at risk of collapsing? Outside of that, Flint has major, major issues it needs to work on, and I am not just talking about crime. Yes, every older, industrial city has its work cut out for them, but Toledo is in another league over Flint. Toledo could be more in line with Buffalo.
I've been to Flint and although it is in alot worse shape, its not that big of a difference. Downtown Flint, yes, but the city no. Both Toledo and Flint are declining rust-belt cities in need of alot of improvement. We have more resources than they do so it might be easier for us, plus we're building a new casino right now. However, both cities lost a significant amount of jobs and people, plus both are dealing with an increase in violent crime and property crimes. Flint ranks first in both burglaries and arson in the country, but guess what city is second in both categories????? Last year Flint seen a huge increase in gun related violence, which led Flint to becoming the Murder Capital second to New Orleans, but Toledo is experiencing the same level of violence right now unfortunately with 27 people shot this past month.
I say all of that because Toledoans for years has always had that thought that we are not in that bad of a shape because we're not Detroit or we're not Flint, but are we????? How can you fix something you don't see???? The reason why we are in better shape is because last decade we actually were one of the only rust-belt cities that maintain a decent job and tax base, but when the 2008 recession hit, Toledo was hit alot worse than alot of cities. While we're constantly saying hey at least we're not Flint, those who see Toledo and compare it to somewhere like Austin,TX are packing their bags and relocating there. You loose that tax base than who will be shopping at the new Marina District???? Who is going to gamble at the new Casino???? Remember Portside?????? Go to the Fort Wayne, IN or Des Moines, IA forums and see what people say about Toledo..... We might as well be Flint's big brother.....
At least Toledo has the new Marina District deal going for it, which will bring $200 - $300 million. It sounds like it could be built for foreigners too so that could mean an increase in immigration to Toledo. Found this article to be interesting:
Every 30 days this summer a new announcement! I believe one is supposed to be a pharmaceutical company locating here, which is really the type of jobs Toledo should be looking for (not casino gambling). It could be that Toledo is finally beginning to discover a recipe for success!
You make some great points. I agree with the consensus that Toledo is not as bad as Flint, however that's not saying much, right? What city is as bad as Flint or Detroit? I will say that Flint is doing a good job of revitalizing their downtown. The recent restoration of the long abandoned Durant Hotel is an excellent example!
I think the comparison of Toledo to Buffalo is appropriate. Both cities are facing the same problems. Dare I say that, employment rate aside, Toledo might be doing better than Buffalo?
Toledo isn't going to be popular among people who prefer Austin or the sunbelt. Toledo is a dense, urban, historic city (compared to the sunbelt cities). It needs to market itself as such, and appeal to people who like cities with those qualities. Toledo is not a huge city, but it is dense, urban, and historic, and should be trying to attract the same kind of people who find Pittsburgh or St. Louis appealing (admittedly, there aren't enough people who do).
The main problem Toledo has is jobs. There is the perception that there are no jobs or opportunities in the area. How much weight does this perception hold? Is the job situation as ghastly as most people believe? Certainly, the cost of living is low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastonestanding
I've been to Flint and although it is in alot worse shape, its not that big of a difference. Downtown Flint, yes, but the city no. Both Toledo and Flint are declining rust-belt cities in need of alot of improvement. We have more resources than they do so it might be easier for us, plus we're building a new casino right now. However, both cities lost a significant amount of jobs and people, plus both are dealing with an increase in violent crime and property crimes. Flint ranks first in both burglaries and arson in the country, but guess what city is second in both categories????? Last year Flint seen a huge increase in gun related violence, which led Flint to becoming the Murder Capital second to New Orleans, but Toledo is experiencing the same level of violence right now unfortunately with 27 people shot this past month.
I say all of that because Toledoans for years has always had that thought that we are not in that bad of a shape because we're not Detroit or we're not Flint, but are we????? How can you fix something you don't see???? The reason why we are in better shape is because last decade we actually were one of the only rust-belt cities that maintain a decent job and tax base, but when the 2008 recession hit, Toledo was hit alot worse than alot of cities. While we're constantly saying hey at least we're not Flint, those who see Toledo and compare it to somewhere like Austin,TX are packing their bags and relocating there. You loose that tax base than who will be shopping at the new Marina District???? Who is going to gamble at the new Casino???? Remember Portside?????? Go to the Fort Wayne, IN or Des Moines, IA forums and see what people say about Toledo..... We might as well be Flint's big brother.....
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