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as noted above.. i've been trying to "move on" and discuss other things for some time now. but instead of discussing the articles linked the boi keeps going on about the i345 removal. congrats on Ronnie proving me wrong.. y'all got me. apparently a few cities have removed freeways successfully. I'm not sure what point y'all are proving though? i agreed it was possible to remove i345. i just didn't think it would work very well redirecting all of that traffic onto a couple downtown streets like the video Ronnie originally linked showed. and obviously i understand the positive of freeway removal from a developer and urbanist standpoint.. I've been clamoring for the Pierce removal for years for those very reasons the recent i345 plan is trying to replicate.
Exactly. The issue isn't that 345 would be removed, but that the combination of other projects (horseshoe, 635, etc.) isn't going to add anywhere near the capacity that will be lost. Regardless of whether 200,000 vehicles is the number or not, losing a major limited access artery and replacing it with a surface street is going to have major implications on traffic as much as it pains many urbanists to admit it.
The idea that traffic can just "use 20 and go around" ignores the hundreds of thousands of people who commute from southern Dallas (north of 20) to points north of downtown, as well as the *potential* residents of that area that Dallas wants to attract. As far as the horseshoe project, that's not going to do a thing about the additional traffic that would be using Woodall Rodgers to get to 75.
I understand that residents of the *city* of Dallas want to get rid of the freeway because they want to start making downtown Dallas a destination instead of making it easier to pass through. Fine. But what these urbanists don't get is that most of the entire allure of DFW as a region, from a business perspective, is its location and ease of transportation options - it's an inland transportation and logistics hub and the ability to get places quickly is a large advantage. DFW actually has some of the lowest congestion levels of the ten largest metros in this country. In my opinion, anything that lessens that advantage and makes regional travel more difficult is a bad idea. They should consider trenching 345 instead.
The Houston project makes more sense (though it's not perfect either) because it actually replaces the Pierce's capacity and creates additional capacity throughout the entire downtown interchange on I-10 and I-69. It doesn't force motorists to take an alternate route, but still will allow Downtown and Midtown to grow together.
I think 345 coming down would certainly be good for downtown Dallas, but would be a net negative for those areas of south and southeast Dallas that rely on the road to get around the region.
urbanists don't get is that most of the entire allure of DFW as a region, from a business perspective, is its location and ease of transportation options
We have heard that and totally disagree. Fine that DFW is a transportation and logicstics hub, that's great, but it doesn't need to run through downtown.
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would be a net negative for those areas of south and southeast Dallas that rely on the road to get around the region.
South Dallas is currently mostly a huge dump (in comparision with north Dallas) with 345 in place. Net negative doesn't really mean much. How much more below average can it get?
so because those people are poor it doesn't matter if they have to spend however much longer sitting in traffic trying to get to the other side of town?
South Dallas is currently mostly a huge dump (in comparision with north Dallas) with 345 in place. Net negative doesn't really mean much. How much more below average can it get?
So this justifies making the transportation system for the people there worse? That's the problem with these types of plans - you can't have it both ways. People in Dallas talk a good game about making south Dallas better, but plans like these suggest that there's no real commitment to it.
Having only one north-south route through downtown Dallas is a poor idea for regional mobility and that's why so many people are pushing back against it (though those in favor of tearing down 345 seem to be much louder). It will do good things for a close-in neighborhoods while simultaneously making it more difficult for an already disadvantaged population to move to and from regional job centers.
And many people are totally OK with that, but let's not act like this traffic is just going to disappear or reroute happily without issues. It's going to make south-to-north movement more difficult and make poor people use more time, fuel, and resources to get to and from their jobs.
But it's all good, because Deep Ellum and Downtown will be connected.
So this justifies making the transportation system for the people there worse? That's the problem with these types of plans - you can't have it both ways. People in Dallas talk a good game about making south Dallas better, but plans like these suggest that there's no real commitment to it.
Having only one north-south route through downtown Dallas is a poor idea for regional mobility and that's why so many people are pushing back against it (though those in favor of tearing down 345 seem to be much louder). It will do good things for a close-in neighborhoods while simultaneously making it more difficult for an already disadvantaged population to move to and from regional job centers.
And many people are totally OK with that, but let's not act like this traffic is just going to disappear or reroute happily without issues. It's going to make south-to-north movement more difficult and make poor people use more time, fuel, and resources to get to and from their jobs.
But it's all good, because Deep Ellum and Downtown will be connected.
Southern dallas is not just poor people ...As long as its gonna take to EVEN START this project gives enuff time for the PERCEPTION to change about southern Dallas. Its already changing quickly. But it'll be a few years for people actually register the change in their minds.
You guys are overlooking the PURPOSE of removing the highway.
The point of removing it is to address the rapid growth of this reigon. Removing it forces the growing population to adapt to a more urban enviroment.
Big urban cities (like what Dallas is becoming) dont care about people in cars. They focus on the pedestrian. Thats why i say over and over that Dallas did well with DART because it will definitely grow into it. The people in those 200,000 cars will eventually get tired of bitching about how bad the traffic is in their new commute and get them a Dart pass and avoid traffic all together....which is how people in NY think.....to hell with cars!!!!!.....
So this justifies making the transportation system for the people there worse? That's the problem with these types of plans - you can't have it both ways. People in Dallas talk a good game about making south Dallas better, but plans like these suggest that there's no real commitment to it.
The way to make south Dallas better is to add more jobs in the downtown corridor and then to the south, not building roads for them to drive northwards more efficiently, and then scurrying back down south out of sight when their employment ends. The average commute time and distance for south Dallas residents shows they are driving far past downtown to jobs in the north. Fix that. It's not that hard to understand.
And northern Dallas isn't just rich people. But that's the primary demographic that will be affected and we all know it. Let's not get caught up on semantics and miss the larger point, eh?
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Originally Posted by dallasboi
...As long as its gonna take to EVEN START this project gives enuff time for the PERCEPTION to change about southern Dallas. Its already changing quickly. But it'll be a few years for people actually register the change in their minds.
Removing the freeway makes southern Dallas less attractive for new transplants that don't work in southern Dallas, ie the vast majority of them. Where are the jobs? Until they are in southern Dallas, the perception, and the need for the freeway, won't change.
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Originally Posted by dallasboi
You guys are overlooking the PURPOSE of removing the highway. :confused
We understand the point of removing the freeway - it's the same point of removing the Pierce Elevated. What we're addressing is the implication of rerouting all of that traffic to other roads. Some of us think the resultant infrastructure will be insufficient for a growing city, and some of us don't.
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Originally Posted by dallasboi
The point of removing it is to address the rapid growth of this reigon. Removing it forces the growing population to adapt to a more urban enviroment.
Yes, a growing population that's still about a third as dense as Boston and a fifth as dense as San Francisco, and with no natural geographic barriers. Thus, a growing population that will likely never be as dense as any of those places, especially when driverless cars come in a few years and continue to enable outward growth.
I mentioned Boston and SF for a reason. SF removed the Embarcadero freeway successfully because honestly, they truly didn't need it - it didn't serve any real purpose above what a boulevard itself could do. There's no real commuting patterns between the East Bay and Marin County to speak of. Boston (a much denser city than Dallas) buried a freeway through its CBD - they didn't destroy it. Even Seattle (also denser than Dallas) is rebuilding the Alaskan Way Viaduct as a tunnel. They understand it serves as a critical part of their transportation infrastructure.
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Originally Posted by dallasboi
Big urban cities (like what Dallas is becoming) dont care about people in cars. They focus on the pedestrian. Thats why i say over and over that Dallas did well with DART because it will definitely grow into it. The people in those 200,000 cars will eventually get tired of bitching about how bad the traffic is in their new commute and get them a Dart pass and avoid traffic all together....which is how people in NY think.....to hell with cars!!!!!.....
DART is a plus but it won't solve the issue of traffic. As long as development patterns continue outward, traffic will continue to increase in downtown Dallas. Since there is no motivation to stop or discourage outward growth (such as an Urban Growth Boundary, a la Oregon), there will continue to be the need for a second north-south corridor in downtown Dallas.
New York and cities like that can say to hell with cars because they've never relied on them in the history of the city, they have density, and they built an economy that does not rely on people being able to move long distances quickly. DFW is an attractive area to live for many people because its NOT New York. If you think that the city can take the attitude of "we'll make traffic so bad that people will be forced out of their cars" and still be economically successful, I've got some beach land in Wyoming to sell you.
DFW is successful because of its a business friendly metro in a business friendly state, and it offers an educated workforce and great transportation infrastructure.
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Originally Posted by TheOverdog
The way to make south Dallas better is to add more jobs in the downtown corridor and then to the south, not building roads for them to drive northwards more efficiently, and then scurrying back down south out of sight when their employment ends. The average commute time and distance for south Dallas residents shows they are driving far past downtown to jobs in the north. Fix that. It's not that hard to understand.
I agree with your entire statement. With that being said, where are these magical jobs coming from in the south? The people aren't going anywhere, and they still have to work. Is there some sort of agreement in place for employers to move jobs to south Dallas if 345 comes down? No.
The reality is that removing 345 would cause additional pain for south Dallas commuters that already on average have longer drive times than their north Dallas neighbors. Unless a major reorganization of regional employment centers happens in the next few years, many of these people will be screwed.
Of course, the urbanistas, gentrifiers, and developers that would then take over that area would be very happy. It's not that hard to understand.
As long as development patterns continue outward, traffic will continue to increase in downtown Dallas. Since there is no motivation to stop or discourage outward growth (such as an Urban Growth Boundary, a la Oregon), there will continue to be the need for a second north-south corridor in downtown Dallas.
It's the freeways that enable the sprawl. Yes, there's no motivation to stop outward growth SO LONG AS WE KEEP BUILDING THE GODDAMN FREEWAYS. Once that ends, the model isn't sustainable. That's what we're trying to do here.
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...As long as its gonna take to EVEN START this project gives enuff time for the PERCEPTION to change about southern Dallas. Its already changing quickly. But it'll be a few years for people actually register the change in their minds.
