Why is Houston Better Than Dallas? (Fort Worth, Poth: 2014, statistics, trains)

[BCB]

The last nine or so posts have been about light rail… not buses, HOV, etc. However, when comparing METRO to DART on each other's website it does have a much larger bus fleet, but that does not necessarily make METRO better or more effecient than DART. When comparing METRO to DART on Wikipedia, the gap is smaller than expected; DART has 2,300+ more stops. I would say that METRO has a more extensive bus system while DART excels at light rail systems and is expanding at a faster pace.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by dallasboi

Good luck with that!!
Catch us first!!!......Plan a line to the airport and maybe we can then be able to compare and contrast systems.

I don't want Houston to catch up with y'all because that would mean we would have an unnecessarily large, ineffective rail system.

Originally Posted by BCB

What do you suppose would be better? Perhaps building a single line streetcar downtown?

If you are referring to the Houston light rail.... then yes. Build rail where the large, dense employment centers are. It's why Houston's rail has almost half the ridership with 1/10 of the tracks laid..... You are getting fooled into believing more rail equals better results. Wrong.

Originally Posted by marcopolo2000

This is the problem with Houston in general. Its much better to plan ahead (and for growth) rather than playing "catch up" the way Houston is now doing when it comes to transit.

Except if that growth doesn't occur near the rail in a meaningful way....

Originally Posted by BCB

The last nine or so posts have been about light rail… not buses, HOV, etc. However, when comparing METRO to DART on each other's website it does have a much larger bus fleet, but that does not necessarily make METRO better or more effecient than DART. When comparing METRO to DART on Wikipedia, the gap is smaller than expected; DART has 2,300+ more stops. I would say that METRO has a more extensive bus system while DART excels at light rail systems and is expanding at a faster pace.

If it excels then why is the ridership so crappy?

[R1070]

Originally Posted by dv1033

Dallas has a 100 year plan that you are celebrating because they went cheap and used abandoned freight tracks where people don't want to live and employers don't want to locate that may take decades to make any sort of meaningful impact to mobility in your region? You realize Houston metro has slightly less pathetic mass transit numbers than DFW. DARTs problem is it's light rail tries to do too much as a hybrid commuter rail which is exacerbated by smaller, more spread out clusters of employment centers.

This is where Houston has the edge, the better core. Houston has 4 significant employment centers clustered centrally, that are continuing to grow; slower than the suburbs but steady. If we can ever get the last two lines, the most important lines, built than I would expect Houston to leave Dallas behind in terms of mobility.

Having all of those business centers clustered together sounds like a traffic headache to me. and not all of DART is abandoned freight tracks. A lot of it was built for DART and a lot of it is elevated rail. Houston's Metro train system currently functions as an on-street light rail/streetcar that replaced previous bus routes. It didn't add transit capacity just replaced a method. Comparing DART to the Metro system is not an equal comparison.

Dallas has light rail, trolleys, Heavy Commuter rail and streetcars coming in the next couple years. Yes, Dallas is more progressive with transportation. No need to be such a downer about it. Optimism can be a good thing. I have high hopes for the infrastructure Dallas is investing in.

[R1070]

[quote=dv1033;27766836]I don't want Houston to catch up with y'all because that would mean we would have an unnecessarily large, ineffective rail system.



If you are referring to the Houston light rail.... then yes. Build rail where the large, dense employment centers are. It's why Houston's rail has almost half the ridership with 1/10 of the tracks laid..... You are getting fooled into believing more rail equals better results. Wrong.



Except if that growth doesn't occur near the rail in a meaningful way....



If it excels then why is the ridership so crappy?[/QUOTE]

The big problem here is the attitude toward transit in Dallas. Yes, people like myself ride it, but a lot of people think they are better than it. Houston has a lot more laid back attitude overall. Also, a lot of Dallas's ridership is commuter traffic to and from work. Those people are not going to use the rail to run errands, etc. Perhaps Houston's rail serves a different demographic than the DART rail,not sure. I know the MARTA rail in Atlanta has a much higher ridership than Dallas and it serves a lot of very poor areas and I'm sure the rail is the only way a lot of folks have to get around. Most of DARTS rail miles are in the Northern areas of town.

[dallasboi]

If Houston's rail system was as large as ours they would be bragging about it. But since its not....they feel they have to convince THEMSELVES that smaller is better....Knock yourselves out!!!

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by R1070

Having all of those business centers clustered together sounds like a traffic headache to me.

Yes it is certainly getting that way, which makes mass transit more viable.

and not all of DART is abandoned freight tracks. A lot of it was built for DART and a lot of it is elevated rail.

Well certainly. It's no wonder that DART does much better in Dallas's core.

Houston's Metro train system currently functions as an on-street light rail/streetcar that replaced previous bus routes. It didn't add transit capacity just replaced a method. Comparing DART to the Metro system is not an equal comparison.

It certainly added capacity. Our LRT maybe just include two linked trains but it carries 4 times as many people as a bus. Not to mention the better reliability of trains over buses.

Dallas has light rail, trolleys, Heavy Commuter rail and streetcars coming in the next couple years. Yes, Dallas is more progressive with transportation. No need to be such a downer about it. Optimism can be a good thing. I have high hopes for the infrastructure Dallas is investing in.

Optimism can be a good thing, but blind faith is not. See below.

Originally Posted by R1070

The big problem here is the attitude toward transit in Dallas. Yes, people like myself ride it, but a lot of people think they are better than it. Houston has a lot more laid back attitude overall. Also, a lot of Dallas's ridership is commuter traffic to and from work. Those people are not going to use the rail to run errands, etc. Perhaps Houston's rail serves a different demographic than the DART rail,not sure. I know the MARTA rail in Atlanta has a much higher ridership than Dallas and it serves a lot of very poor areas and I'm sure the rail is the only way a lot of folks have to get around. Most of DARTS rail miles are in the Northern areas of town.

It's not attitude that is the big problem or demographic, it is a flawed design. Look at cities with successful transit, they have density (employment wise and residential) which leads to expensive parking. Dallas just doesn't have density (mostly employment density) to warrant such an expansive system. DART would have done well to expand light rail in Dallas's core and connected the suburbs with park&ride commuter buses and a start up commuter rail. Quantity over quality in costly rail infrastructure is never a good idea.

[BCB]

Originally Posted by dallasboi

If Houston's rail system was as large as ours they would be bragging about it. But since its not....they feel they have to convince THEMSELVES that smaller is better....Knock yourselves out!!!

My same thoughts. Diehard fans are diehard fans. It's just silly to be so negative to any city which has progressed so far.

[dallasboi]

Originally Posted by stoneclaw

It's the same thing how your man BCB is routing on Dallas to do in the freeway department. He's banking on freeways that aren't even built yet to say the DFW freeway system is on par with Houston.

The fact that Houston's puny, one- horse existing light rail line is already receiving decent ridership numbers, I'd say its already comparable to Dallas's system, number wise. Mileage wise, Dallas is light years ahead. I wish they'd bring the plans back to take the Red Line all the way to IAH instead of just to Northline. It's good they're expanding, but Northline is not a point of interest.



No. Building the rail where the employment centers are.



stoneclaw

I wonder why people keep saying this???...Our rail system serves every major employment center in the Entire DFW metroplex....including DTFW via TRE....am I missing something???

[R1070]

Originally Posted by dallasboi

I wonder why people keep saying this???...Our rail system serves every major employment center in the Entire DFW metroplex....including DTFW via TRE....am I missing something???

Well that's it. I'm done. Packing now to move to Houston.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by BCB

My same thoughts. Diehard fans are diehard fans. It's just silly to be so negative to any city which has progressed so far.

Because some people actually know something the subject of mass transit and would rather not have an expansive system that serves so few people.

Originally Posted by dallasboi

I wonder why people keep saying this???...Our rail system serves every major employment center in the Entire DFW metroplex....including DTFW via TRE....am I missing something???

Originally Posted by R1070

Well that's it. I'm done. Packing now to move to Houston.

Because it is that whole quality over quantity thing again....

DFW doesn't have the large dense employment centers that Houston has or the higher quality of parks, universities, sports stadiums, performing arts and museums all in its core. I guess maybe you can hope y'all develop some, but I'd rather be in the position of already having them. You can think all the rail somehow makes mass transit effective in DFW but the data doesn't back it up.