My problem with Christianity (Buddhist, hell, Muslims, God)
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I can see where you are coming from MontanaGuy...but on the same token wouldn't legalizing it pretty much be the same as condoning it? I mean, there are a lot of people wanting to legalize marajuana and that would also be condoning it as well. It's more of a matter of where we draw the line. If Christians and everyone else that is now opposed to gay marriage opt to approve it...later on down the road 3 and 4 people are going to want to get married or older men are going to want to push it through to make it ok to marry a 12 year old etc. To me, other than the fact that it is a sin (and I won't even go into my own personal feelings on the matter) that's my next biggest reason against it. Everytime you approve something, the next time it gets bigger and even more immoral...know what I mean?
No, I don't know what you mean. I'm still failing to understand, how after providing you with the American Psychological Associations' official stance on homosexuality:
You can honestly and seriously sit there suggest that homosexuality is somehow on the same level as legalizing illicit drugs or condoning pedophilia. Do you have any idea how insulting that is to gays?
Yet another obstacle for gays in the quest for equal rights....Christians have managed to associate homosexuality with pedophila
Guess given the long running scandal in the church that makes sense
Location: Monterey Bay, California -- watching the sea lions, whales and otters! :D
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I think Sous has a point. The point being that most Christians on this board tend to use scripture as a way to support their beliefs. Now, when a person who is not into total Christianity uses scripture, and points out how it has been used frequently to discredit or support certain issues, then they are put down. This does seem like there are two different standards.
Although many Christians seem to get frustrated and then brush off the agnostics and atheists, they don't seem to want to explain the contradictions. The most common reply I seem to read is "You must have faith." That is not what Sous is asking. The question seems to beg for some clarity about particular issues. I do not understand why that is so difficult.
Unfortunately, my experience with hardcore Christians is that scripture is frequently taken out of context to support one issue one time, and then another one is used to support some equally opposite position. I am not a theologian, however, I have been involved in religion, and I am very interested in theology and spirituality, and I can never reconcile those contradictory uses of scripture when it is convenient to support a point.
I think this is where the Agnostics/Atheists have a problem with Christianity (from my point of view -- the other Agnostics/Atheists can speak for themselves) -- why can't Christians just answer logically? Or is Christianity NOT a logical religion? Or are no religions logical?
It is also interesting to me, and admirable, that the proposed Atheists and Agnostics seem to truly want answers....they seek to find understanding....yet the Christians seem to refuse any logical reply. Is that because there is no logic to Christianity? Is it merely a belief, much like Santa Claus (who was shown to exist in Europe) is a belief?
I know that many Christians on the forum have expressed that they would rather keep religion and not take chances of going to...you know where....where it's hot and filled with fire.....than to question what they have. That, to me, is a fear factor.
Here is the thing -- people like myself who are in the middle (agnostics), are wondering just what is this Christian religion all about?? There are so many Christians in the U.S. So, we seek answers. Christianity doesn't seem very kind in many ways that it is practiced -- so people wonder how a "loving" God could be so unloving.
As has been expressed on other threads, mythology had a strong-hold many years ago....now Christianity has taken up that role.
I do agree that religion should not set government policy. It should be the same as any gay person practicing their lifestyle -- what is done in the home, stays in the home. If you are practicing a certain religion, that's fine....just don't make laws to constrain others who are not into the same belief or have a different religion. I do not understand why there is such a trend to try to twist other people's arms to be Christian, and to limit other people's choices -- especially since there is no proof (and I do not believe the Bible is proof, but rather a document used to support certain belief systems).
The thing I have noticed that is so interesting to me is that the Christians seem very judgemental, whereas the Atheists/Agnostics seem sincerely interested and tolerant. What does that say for Christianity when there is not true proof, but merely "faith?"
Well, as usual, I am sure I have alienated some people, except for those open enough to see other viewpoints and not harshly judge. Keep in mind that those of us not convinced that your religion is the "only" religion are actively observing the behaviors of those in your religion and determining whether it is "kosher" or not. Actions and words do not go unnoticed, even if it seems that they are ignored.
Alrighty, said my piece, and now I'll leave this back to the OP and others. Thanks for letting me express myself.
I can see where you are coming from MontanaGuy...but on the same token wouldn't legalizing it pretty much be the same as condoning it?
I see what you're saying but I honestly don't think it's immoral. I guess it's something I don't understand since I'm not gay but when I look back on my upbringing I remember how a few teachers in school taught us how horrible the homosexuals were (I'm an older guy so it's probably not the same today) and I believed all of that for years. When I moved to a big city I encountered a few gay people who were coworkers and even became good friends with a woman who finally told me she was a lesbian. None of these people were the monsters that my teachers talked about, they were regular everyday people who just had different attractions than I did. At some point I realized that all of the hate and hostility against gays was not justified. Why shouldn't they just be allowed to live fullfilling lives even if it's not the same kind of life that the rest of us are trying to acheive?
This was the EXACT same argument used by whites against interracial marriage in the early and mid part of the 20th century. They alleged that whites were superior and God's chosen ones, and therefore blacks, being inferior, would go against God's will for white supremacy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sous777
I used scripture to make a point - in this case a point that suggests Jesus was a false prophet, proving that scripture interpretation is up to the individual. No where else in my argument is there scripture.
I didn't want this to turn into a scripture after scripture argument...because I said, that's wasting my time. Since the subject is homosexuality, it is already obvious what scripture is in question - Leviticus and Romans.
Therefore it would be unneccessary to bring up scriptures which do not pertain to these.
You contradict yourself. You make rules for yourself while telling others not to. Jesus is NOT a false prophet. I'm going to use Scripture in my arguements so to bad. I'm against homosexuality. -Moderator cut - personal remarks, off topic
Use scripture then. Use it and refute the claims I made in the first post...claims which a far as I'm concerned severely damage the basis of your beliefs.
Jesus is not a false prophet? Homosexuality is not a sin.
I agree with you Montana, when I was growing up I didn't ever hear the word homosexual, gay, straight, lesbian. There were much cruder words then that we were forbidden to use. I thought they were some sort of "bad people" Then I joined the Army and met quite a few. Hey my gay friends were wonderful , caring, funny people just like me. From then on, I became kind of a defender of them . Same way with Athiests, I was always curious and c ouldn't wait to leave home and see one. They all looked pretty much like me, so I befriended some of them too. I will say one thing about the athiests. At least there is no arguement over chapter and verse or doctrine in the athiest society.I think that is why they (you) are so much smarter than I am, becauseyou guys all seem very well educated. I believe in god, and I am heterosexual. I am also a pretty open minded old broad who finds goodness in everyone
I think Sous has a point. The point being that most Christians on this board tend to use scripture as a way to support their beliefs. Now, when a person who is not into total Christianity uses scripture, and points out how it has been used frequently to discredit or support certain issues, then they are put down. This does seem like there are two different standards.
Although many Christians seem to get frustrated and then brush off the agnostics and atheists, they don't seem to want to explain the contradictions. The most common reply I seem to read is "You must have faith." That is not what Sous is asking. The question seems to beg for some clarity about particular issues. I do not understand why that is so difficult.
Unfortunately, my experience with hardcore Christians is that scripture is frequently taken out of context to support one issue one time, and then another one is used to support some equally opposite position. I am not a theologian, however, I have been involved in religion, and I am very interested in theology and spirituality, and I can never reconcile those contradictory uses of scripture when it is convenient to support a point.
I think this is where the Agnostics/Atheists have a problem with Christianity (from my point of view -- the other Agnostics/Atheists can speak for themselves) -- why can't Christians just answer logically? Or is Christianity NOT a logical religion? Or are no religions logical?
It is also interesting to me, and admirable, that the proposed Atheists and Agnostics seem to truly want answers....they seek to find understanding....yet the Christians seem to refuse any logical reply. Is that because there is no logic to Christianity? Is it merely a belief, much like Santa Claus (who was shown to exist in Europe) is a belief?
I know that many Christians on the forum have expressed that they would rather keep religion and not take chances of going to...you know where....where it's hot and filled with fire.....than to question what they have. That, to me, is a fear factor.
Here is the thing -- people like myself who are in the middle (agnostics), are wondering just what is this Christian religion all about?? There are so many Christians in the U.S. So, we seek answers. Christianity doesn't seem very kind in many ways that it is practiced -- so people wonder how a "loving" God could be so unloving.
As has been expressed on other threads, mythology had a strong-hold many years ago....now Christianity has taken up that role.
I do agree that religion should not set government policy. It should be the same as any gay person practicing their lifestyle -- what is done in the home, stays in the home. If you are practicing a certain religion, that's fine....just don't make laws to constrain others who are not into the same belief or have a different religion. I do not understand why there is such a trend to try to twist other people's arms to be Christian, and to limit other people's choices -- especially since there is no proof (and I do not believe the Bible is proof, but rather a document used to support certain belief systems).
The thing I have noticed that is so interesting to me is that the Christians seem very judgemental, whereas the Atheists/Agnostics seem sincerely interested and tolerant. What does that say for Christianity when there is not true proof, but merely "faith?"
Well, as usual, I am sure I have alienated some people, except for those open enough to see other viewpoints and not harshly judge. Keep in mind that those of us not convinced that your religion is the "only" religion are actively observing the behaviors of those in your religion and determining whether it is "kosher" or not. Actions and words do not go unnoticed, even if it seems that they are ignored.
Alrighty, said my piece, and now I'll leave this back to the OP and others. Thanks for letting me express myself.
No, I don't know what you mean. I'm still failing to understand, how after providing you with the American Psychological Associations' official stance on homosexuality:
You can honestly and seriously sit there suggest that homosexuality is somehow on the same level as legalizing illicit drugs or condoning pedophilia. Do you have any idea how insulting that is to gays?
Yet another obstacle for gays in the quest for equal rights....Christians have managed to associate homosexuality with pedophila
Guess given the long running scandal in the church that makes sense
First off, you want a perspective from Christians without using the Bible. That's something like asking judge not to make a decision based on the laws and his interpretations of the law. Then you say it's ok for scripture...but dismiss and dispute it anyway.
OK, Sous...here's the deal...you're on one end of an argument that you have your own ideas on and firmly stand on your beliefs. The Christians are on the opposing team and neither are going to back down! Might as well face it now. Christians are not going to just back down and let you win because that's what you want! There are a lot of things in this world that I want, but that doesn't mean I get those things.
As for your statement "Do you have any idea how insulting that is to gays?"...you ask a question...want opinions then find the answers you get as "insulting"...gee go figure And yet, you haven't insulted a single Christian on here have you?
Next, as for comparing gays to illegal drugs and pedophiles...yeah, that's exactly what I said Why would I know that would be what you would come back with...typical. Actually, I think the point I was making was that people think drugs are wrong...they're illegal. People think that Pedophilia is wrong...it's illegal. People think that homosexuality is wrong...GUESS WHAT!? IT'S NOT ILLEGAL! While it may be ILLEGAL to be married it is not illegal to be gay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sous777
"Isn't legalizing it the same as condoning it?"
This was the EXACT same argument used by whites against interracial marriage in the early and mid part of the 20th century. They alleged that whites were superior and God's chosen ones, and therefore blacks, being inferior, would go against God's will for white supremacy.
Do you not see the correlation?
Yeah...this is SOOOOO the same thing here So what, are you saying that Christians think they are superior? or maybe heterosexual people are superior or???? And PLEASE..give me a break...Being BLACK or ASIAN or any other race has nothing to do with homosexuality. You can no more prove to me that being gay is NOT a choice than I can prove to you that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God and that what the Bible says is 100% true and accurate. I can sit here and tell you all day WHY I think the Bible is accurate (give you links to websites etc), you could sit there all day and give me the same references for why homosexuality IS a choice...neither of us are going to budge...you're not going to convince me anymore than I will you! It's all a he said she said thing. HOWEVER...being born Black, Hispanic or Asian IS IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM a CHOICE and there is no way either of us can dispute that!
So please do not lump your situation together with race...it just doesn't work!
Then what do you think we should be with homosexuals? Should they be locked up or put in psychiatric institutions? If you're against homosexuality then you're obviously against homosexuals as people as well. I've said many times on this forum that I'm an atheist but somehow I have the feeling that Jesus who has always been portrayed as a caring and understanding man would view your thoughts as being callous and uncaring.
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